Author Topic: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!  (Read 6979 times)

Offline Jimmy K

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2015, 01:02:32 pm »
I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.
That would be easy, but if you read the grading guidelines they are not grading solely on that, so seeing raw proctor scoresheets could be confusing. They combine the proctors perceptions and can modify those if a large portion of examinees notice something different. That's why I thought a short writeup would be easier - what did the grader expect me to find?
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2015, 01:04:14 pm »



I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.

How would the proctor sheets give you feedback? They are just there to help the graders.
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Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2015, 01:09:55 pm »
Thanks for the update, I was not sure how they are doing it currently. I do know people often screw up their email or change it. Here's the most current list of bad emails.
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/noemail.php

Jimmy - In your case you did not get the newer tick sheet RTP, your's basically had no feedback only the grids. I suggest you contact Bruce Buerger and ask, be sure to give him your Examinee Number. If you would like I'll be glad to go over your exam sheet and tell you what to improve upon, of course I'm not known for being especially touchy feely. ;)

The current basis for RTP is this:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Judging_RTP.docx

The lead judge cuts in the grids and then I tweak the boxes and headers to convey where to focus for improvement. This is the sheet Toby received.

To do as you ask would require writing that information down. I personally make a consensus sheet using the NHC Second Round sheet, but you could not read it, it is for me during the grading to help form a mental picture and create a virtual beer. As I grade I continue to add to the virtual beer and tweak scoring as more information comes from the examinee sheets. To provide what you want would be the old RTP and would probably add another hour or two per examinee to the graders time. I know it's tough for me to get more than a single hour of down time here or there, much less another 24. Assuming 6 hours can be snagged per week for that level of feedback then a month at a minimum to the wait time.


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Offline Jimmy K

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2015, 01:20:24 pm »
Jimmy - In your case you did not get the newer tick sheet RTP, your's basically had no feedback only the grids. I suggest you contact Bruce Buerger and ask, be sure to give him your Examinee Number. If you would like I'll be glad to go over your exam sheet and tell you what to improve upon, of course I'm not known for being especially touchy feely. ;)
Gotcha - that RTP is really what I was expecting last time.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2015, 01:28:00 pm »
Thanks for the update, I was not sure how they are doing it currently. I do know people often screw up their email or change it. Here's the most current list of bad emails.
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/noemail.php

Jimmy - In your case you did not get the newer tick sheet RTP, your's basically had no feedback only the grids. I suggest you contact Bruce Buerger and ask, be sure to give him your Examinee Number. If you would like I'll be glad to go over your exam sheet and tell you what to improve upon, of course I'm not known for being especially touchy feely. ;)

The current basis for RTP is this:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Judging_RTP.docx

The lead judge cuts in the grids and then I tweak the boxes and headers to convey where to focus for improvement. This is the sheet Toby received.

To do as you ask would require writing that information down. I personally make a consensus sheet using the NHC Second Round sheet, but you could not read it, it is for me during the grading to help form a mental picture and create a virtual beer. As I grade I continue to add to the virtual beer and tweak scoring as more information comes from the examinee sheets. To provide what you want would be the old RTP and would probably add another hour or two per examinee to the graders time. I know it's tough for me to get more than a single hour of down time here or there, much less another 24. Assuming 6 hours can be snagged per week for that level of feedback then a month at a minimum to the wait time.

ahh, I guess I would have liked a bit more feedback on the areas of improvement is all. that section on my score sheet was minimal (Congrats for doing very well... minor improvements...) without the specific check box areas to pay attention to portion. I understand that these are all volunteer graders and I totally understand how difficult it is to find extra time in the week.




I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.

How would the proctor sheets give you feedback? They are just there to help the graders.

I would be interested in seeing where my perceptions diverged from theirs. As it makes up at least 20% of the grade (scoreing accuracy) and perhaps more (perceptive ability).

don't get me wrong, I'm not really complaining, just airing desires.  I am impressed with the dedication of the BJCP members who organize and run exams, and those that score them on their own time. In a lot of ways the BJCP is really impressive.

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Offline AmandaK

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2015, 01:43:19 pm »
Jonathan, in many of the exams I have taken the exam or been a proctor for the exam we have taken the time to have the examinees listen to what the admin claimed the beers to be and what the proctors perceived/scored. It is not required, obviously, but it is something done in this area since we all want an idea of how it went prior to getting real scores in a few months time.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2015, 01:59:04 pm »
Jonathan, in many of the exams I have taken the exam or been a proctor for the exam we have taken the time to have the examinees listen to what the admin claimed the beers to be and what the proctors perceived/scored. It is not required, obviously, but it is something done in this area since we all want an idea of how it went prior to getting real scores in a few months time.

This is also what I do after giving an exam, a synopsis of what the beers were and the proctors' scores.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2015, 02:26:08 pm »
Jonathan, in many of the exams I have taken the exam or been a proctor for the exam we have taken the time to have the examinees listen to what the admin claimed the beers to be and what the proctors perceived/scored. It is not required, obviously, but it is something done in this area since we all want an idea of how it went prior to getting real scores in a few months time.

we did all sit around having a beer after and informally talking about it. Some of the bad beers were so extraordinarily bad I had to know if they were doctored (they weren't) and on of the out of style beers was, i was pretty sure, standard american lager entered as german lager (it was) so we at least got to go over it with a few of the proctors and the admin. I was pretty sure I passed before I left but didn't have a great feel for how close I was to the proctors.
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Offline toby

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2015, 02:38:06 pm »
The web server sends an automated email with your score and rank when the database is updated.

And to add a little additional info, you then log into the "Check Your Record" portal and can view PDF copies of your Exam sheets and the RTP.

I was basically shocked when I got my last exam back, but I'd like to see something in the middle. [...] With that, I could compare it to my scanned exam sheets and decide for myself where I went wrong. As it is now, I have nothing to work with.

From a time and effort perspective, I think even the exam admin notes and proctor sheets would be helpful for me.  There would be little to no effort since I'm pretty sure they're going to have scanned copies of those already, and the combination of the abbreviated RTPs and those would give me boatloads of information in a format more helpful for me.

How would the proctor sheets give you feedback? They are just there to help the graders.

From my perspective, they would help me triangulate any gaps in perception if combined with the admin notes.  In my locale, the opportunities to judge with higher ranked judges are very few and far between, and it's a bit of a handicap in the guild-like system the BJCP uses.

don't get me wrong, I'm not really complaining, just airing desires.

To be blunt, if raising concerns or trying to help the process become more helpful for those within it becomes considered complaining, that doesn't bode well.

Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2015, 02:56:36 pm »
Have a solution devised which is easy to implement and more consideration will be given than simply airing perceived grievances. Also better to present that solution to the Exam Directorate than to wait for a members meeting later in the year. The former is try to solve a perceived issue, the latter is really just complaining, especially since the EDs might not even be there.

The proctor sheets will probably never be public so scratch that. It has been discussed in the past and discarded. The consensus scores are sometimes put aside so those will probably not be made for public consumption since they are sometimes just a starting point. I see no reason why the admin notes could not be available, but in truth you could probably just ask your admin for a copy or a synopsis of the beers.

We always go over the beers and the scores and perceptions following the exam. The last time our discussion went at least 90 minutes and the examinees who cared took notes.
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Offline toby

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2015, 04:02:44 pm »
Have a solution devised which is easy to implement and more consideration will be given than simply airing perceived grievances.
Part of the problem is that they are being perceived as grievances.  Way too much is being made out of a single passing comment I made.  I understand.  The Simpsons Already Did It.

Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2015, 05:11:59 pm »
You should find a seat at an upcoming Written exam, word on the street is the last one with the 2008 Guidelines will be the July Quarterly exam.
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Offline Pinski

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2015, 05:26:44 pm »
You should find a seat at an upcoming Written exam, word on the street is the last one with the 2008 Guidelines will be the July Quarterly exam.

This is exactly why I'm busting my arse to earn enough experience points to take the written ASAP.
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Offline toby

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2015, 05:57:49 pm »
This is exactly why I'm busting my arse to earn enough experience points to take the written ASAP.
From what I've seen, if you're close, most exam admins will make an exception if possible.  For me, points isn't an issue, but being able to wrangle the date and travel to work together (my closest option is still a ~10 hour round trip).  I can't make the May quarterly, so I'm somewhat crossing my fingers that the NHC Written will either be on the Wednesday or late enough on the Tuesday for me to make it (for some reason, I'm remembering it was either morning or mid-day on Tuesday last year).  My fallback option is convincing one of the TX guys I know to proctor a July quarterly if they don't wind up scheduling one already.

Offline MDixon

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Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2015, 06:07:10 pm »
Looks like a drive to Houston might be the only choice other than the NHC.
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/graders.php

I had a buddy lined up to give me the Quarterly exam and it got shot down because he is not a current grader although he graded in the past so I grabbed another National and we pushed the date to the July offering.
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