Author Topic: How best to describe 22C?  (Read 3023 times)

Offline rjharper

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 646
    • Angry Scotsman Brewing
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2015, 09:47:57 PM »
Well I got my white whale. I took 1st in category 22C in MCAB XVII. I've been chasing a medal in that comp for years!

Offline morticaixavier

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7782
  • Underhill VT
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2015, 09:50:55 PM »
fantastic! way to go.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2015, 09:51:16 PM »
Well I got my white whale. I took 1st in category 22C in MCAB XVII. I've been chasing a medal in that comp for years!

Nice work !
Jon H.

Offline spaterson

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 11:37:29 PM »
I'm glad I found this post as I'm having the same dilemma with Cat. 20A, the Fruits.  I have very limited olfactory senses which impact my ability to perceive those tiny little thing that many BJCP judges lock right into.  So what do I do to make good beer?  I compete!  I rely heavily on what the judges detect and report and apply that to my brew process.  I thank all of the BJCP judges whenever I can. So far, that strategy has worked.  1st place 2014 Denver, a Vienna that scored a 45.  This year I have two 1st place ponies in the race at San Diego.  Different styles this year, one being a 20A. 

I described it as "Porter" even though the Robust Porter base has scored as high as a 41 in some local competitions.  To me the fruit "balance/complements" my base very well, and judges have stated that. I detect the tartness of the fruit subdues the slight burnt roast character of Robust Porter.  So what I'm saying is the did the presence of the Fruit turn my Robust into a Brown?  Is that the style I should be describing this as?  It almost appeared that one of the two judges in the first round dinged me for only describing it as a Porter.  Comment in overall impression section on score sheet - "What type Porter?" 

One final question -  If I described the base as a "Porter with xxx fruit" in the first round does that description care over to the final round?  Can I change it to a Brown Porter?  Or leave well enough alone? 
Club:ASH (Arizona Society of Homebrewers) - Head Steward
AHA Member
Fav Quotes: Weather is here, wish you were beautiful .... and
Poor spellers of the world UNTIE!

Offline Jimmy K

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3646
  • Delaware
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2015, 03:48:57 PM »

One final question -  If I described the base as a "Porter with xxx fruit" in the first round does that description care over to the final round?  Can I change it to a Brown Porter?  Or leave well enough alone? 
Not sure, but go into the online software and see if you can edit the description.
Delmarva United Homebrewers - President by inverse coup - former president ousted himself.
AHA Member since 2006
BJCP Certified: B0958

Offline santoch

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
  • North Bend, WA
    • WAHA
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2015, 06:41:47 AM »
I'm not sure either.  You should email Janis if she doesn't see this msg within a couple of days.
Mt. Si Brewing Society
Washington Homebrewer's Association (WAHA)
BJCP GM3/Mead Judge

Offline spaterson

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2015, 11:09:00 PM »
So the entry software for the final round does not allow you to change the mandatory description of a 20A style.  It only allows you to add your recipe data. I would say this is rightfully so!  I will live with how I described the base.

Of course the question still remains, should a judge diminish the scoring of a 20A or any of the styles that require a base beer description, if the entrant only describes the general style and not the specific style. To me the BJCP 2008 Style Guideline is somewhat confusing on this.  Like for a 20A, it states in one sentence "  IF THIS BEER IS BASED ON A CLASSIC STYLE (E.G., BLONDE ALE) THEN THE SPECIFIC STYLE MUST BE SPECIFIED."  Then in the very next sentence it says, "CLASSIC STYLES DO NOT HAVE TO BE CITED (E.G., “PORTER” OR “WHEAT ALE” IS ACCEPTABLE)."

It would be nice if some BJCP judges could ring in here.  When should the base of say 20A fruit beer, be described as "only" a Porter and when should it be described as "Brown Porter" or "Robust Porter" or "Baltic Porter"?  If the fruit seems to complement the base in a manner that it does not appear as one of those classic styles???  I don't know, I'm not a judge, but it would be nice to know for future competitions.


Club:ASH (Arizona Society of Homebrewers) - Head Steward
AHA Member
Fav Quotes: Weather is here, wish you were beautiful .... and
Poor spellers of the world UNTIE!

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2015, 11:34:04 PM »
I'm looking forward to this dilemma with the new guidelines. With American Wild you have to either list a base beer style, which I would think would be sour beer... or give the ingredients and desired characteristics, stats. I will be going with the later. I can just see the score sheets coming where a brewer enters a 28c Mixed Fermentation Sour Beer with Fruit, saying that the base was a Kölsch primaried with bret b, lacto and pedio, secondaried on pomegranates in a bourbon barrel... and the judge giving it a 25 because you cant taste the base beer.

Offline brewday

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Chicago
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2015, 12:08:12 AM »
I'm looking forward to this dilemma with the new guidelines. With American Wild you have to either list a base beer style, which I would think would be sour beer... or give the ingredients and desired characteristics, stats. I will be going with the later. I can just see the score sheets coming where a brewer enters a 28c Mixed Fermentation Sour Beer with Fruit, saying that the base was a Kölsch primaried with bret b, lacto and pedio, secondaried on pomegranates in a bourbon barrel... and the judge giving it a 25 because you cant taste the base beer.

+1

I just experienced something like this, only in the opposite direction - I was given a 25 because the judges could taste the base beer.  It was a Berliner Weisse aged on raspberries, entered in 20A with that description.  It was dinged for Brett, period.  Advice was to use cleaner fruit to avoid infection!  Um, I pitched the Brett, which is perfectly at home in the base beer.  The other half of this batch didn't get the fruit and scored a 41 in the same comp.  I suppose I could have listed Brett in the description, but I shouldn't have to, right?

Looking forward, where should this beer go in comps based on 2015 guidelines - 28B, 28C or 29A???

Jon Weaver

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2015, 01:36:03 AM »
What I plan to say, for example, 80% german pils 20% german light munich, primary fermented with lactobaccilus B and brett L, secondary fermented on peach puree, carboy aged 8 months, bottle conditioned to 3 volumes. Targeting a pale, sour beer with tropical fruit brett character rather than horse-barnyard, and supporting peach flavor.

I fear that not describing which brett will land you with a poor score too. Not all bretts smell like a donkey.


Offline brewday

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Chicago
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2015, 02:39:59 AM »
True, certainly with Brett L -- I think tart cherry pie, no donkey.  Currently you're limited in the description by the number of characters you can use.  Hopefully changes as well.
Jon Weaver

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2015, 02:43:59 AM »
What is this, Twitter?

Offline brewday

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Chicago
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2015, 03:06:34 AM »
What is this, Twitter?

I thought I had a description in 23 get cut off last summer, but maybe I misremember.  Regardless, I like your approach.
Jon Weaver

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2015, 01:23:07 PM »
What is this, Twitter?

I thought I had a description in 23 get cut off last summer, but maybe I misremember.  Regardless, I like your approach.
You're probably right. That will have to change. With the new cat 28, there is so much variety to these beers that the brewer should be allowed to basically fill in all the blanks. Otherwise knuckleheads are going to be dinging great beers just because they didn't get donkey.

Offline brewday

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Chicago
Re: How best to describe 22C?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2015, 01:39:40 PM »
What is this, Twitter?

I thought I had a description in 23 get cut off last summer, but maybe I misremember.  Regardless, I like your approach.
You're probably right. That will have to change. With the new cat 28, there is so much variety to these beers that the brewer should be allowed to basically fill in all the blanks. Otherwise knuckleheads are going to be dinging great beers just because they didn't get donkey.

Great.  Now I'm off to brew Dominick The American Wild Ass Christmas Donkey Ale.  Look out, 28C....
Jon Weaver