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Author Topic: Water Water everywhere  (Read 2317 times)

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2015, 08:35:07 am »
Touche, and I realize I'm defending a mediocre product that I've already abandoned.

I realize most of us on here, myself included, will opt for phosphoric acid, lactic acid, or other means to adjust mash pH. But I think a lot of people just getting into brewing would appreciate a simple "use x product for y gallons of z alkalinity water" product. Something simple to get the mash chemistry close enough that a new brewer can focus on solving other problems before tackling water chemistry.

Could also be I'm just overreacting to all this since mash chemistry has been such a headache for me with my BIAB setup. So many other things I'd rather focus on than mash chemistry...

I have been very happy with a copy of bru'n water, a jar of calcium chloride, one of Gypsum, and one of lactic acid and RO water for a blank slate to work from. then just aim for a middle of the road profile to start and once you've got a handle on those other things, and water chemistry is the thing that's holding your beer back from jumping to the next level, you can start tweaking your numbers there.

Close to my procedure. I also use baking soda and pickling lime for some alkalinity if needed.

yes, I so rarely need it that I forget. I don't brew a lot of stouts though which is pretty much the only time I find myself needing more alkalinity.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
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"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2015, 08:39:05 am »
Yeah, I use baking soda for stout/dark and have been using epsom on IPA, to help reduce excess Ca (as opposed to all gypsum).
Jon H.

Offline macbrews

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2015, 09:13:13 am »
So to add to the discussion - What about the contribution of the grist to the finished mineral levels?  As an example, if you are shooting for X ppm of Ca, should you factor in what you get from the grain or just start with that level in the water?

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2015, 11:11:38 am »
So to add to the discussion - What about the contribution of the grist to the finished mineral levels?  As an example, if you are shooting for X ppm of Ca, should you factor in what you get from the grain or just start with that level in the water?

I don't take that into account at all, beyond the effect on the mash pH that the grist has. I don't worry about adding mg because I know the grist will provide enough but beyond that I just don't worry about it.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline YooperBrew

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2015, 05:46:24 pm »
Touche, and I realize I'm defending a mediocre product that I've already abandoned.

I realize most of us on here, myself included, will opt for phosphoric acid, lactic acid, or other means to adjust mash pH. But I think a lot of people just getting into brewing would appreciate a simple "use x product for y gallons of z alkalinity water" product. Something simple to get the mash chemistry close enough that a new brewer can focus on solving other problems before tackling water chemistry.

Could also be I'm just overreacting to all this since mash chemistry has been such a headache for me with my BIAB setup. So many other things I'd rather focus on than mash chemistry...

The downfall with new brewers using the product is that it usually don't work, and it can create its own set of off-flavors.  In your case, it seemed to help, but in almost every other case it causes problems and the new brewer would get frustrated with 'water treatment' as a result.  It made my beers worse, not better, when I started dabbling in making improvements to my beer in around 2006.

It's a product that doesn't work, as it simply can't do what it claims to do.  I did consider using my jar (I hate to waste things!) in my sparge water to reduce the pH of that, as I would use phosphoric acid and in theory it might buffer my sparge to under a pH of 6, but I never did try that.


Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2015, 06:10:32 pm »
The downfall with new brewers using the product is that it usually don't work, and it can create its own set of off-flavors.  In your case, it seemed to help, but in almost every other case it causes problems and the new brewer would get frustrated with 'water treatment' as a result.  It made my beers worse, not better, when I started dabbling in making improvements to my beer in around 2006.


Yeah, I agree, especially with the part that it could discourage new brewers from learning real water treatment.  I've used it in the past and it had nothing but negative impact on my beers, sometimes mildly minerally, sometimes more minerally. A complete fraud crap product IMO. I kicked myself for a good while when I got serious about pH and realized it wasn't that tough at all.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 06:21:52 pm by HoosierBrew »
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2015, 06:33:53 pm »
I'm having a really hard time getting my pH right, even with Bru'n water. All the literature/products for water treatment are geared towards three vessel systems, and while BIAB appears to be a simple adjustment it's proving otherwise.

This is the first really frustrating hurdle I've encountered home brewing, and it's driving me crazy. I did pretty well in chemistry in college, and that's adding to the frustration. I feel like when I have the time to sit down and really learn the chemistry involved I'll be fine. However, that's not likely to happen between 50+ hour work weeks and engineering classes…  :-\
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2015, 06:44:02 pm »
I'm having a really hard time getting my pH right, even with Bru'n water. All the literature/products for water treatment are geared towards three vessel systems, and while BIAB appears to be a simple adjustment it's proving otherwise.

This is the first really frustrating hurdle I've encountered home brewing, and it's driving me crazy. I did pretty well in chemistry in college, and that's adding to the frustration. I feel like when I have the time to sit down and really learn the chemistry involved I'll be fine. However, that's not likely to happen between 50+ hour work weeks and engineering classes…  :-\

I hear you, Phil. Getting water right was my last step.  Bru'nwater relies on really accurately entering your info - all water volumes, grist, L numbers, categories (base, roast, etc.). I assume you have this down and still are off from predicted ?  I ask because it took some trial and error for me. We can help you figure it out.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 07:03:26 pm by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2015, 07:21:26 am »
I've been talking with mchrispen and it we've made progress on figuring out what went wrong with the target pH.

I've got a plan for next time, and I'm working on getting a "real" pH meter. I'll be sure and report back with how things go.  :)
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2015, 07:31:32 am »
I'm having a really hard time getting my pH right, even with Bru'n water. All the literature/products for water treatment are geared towards three vessel systems, and while BIAB appears to be a simple adjustment it's proving otherwise.

This is the first really frustrating hurdle I've encountered home brewing, and it's driving me crazy. I did pretty well in chemistry in college, and that's adding to the frustration. I feel like when I have the time to sit down and really learn the chemistry involved I'll be fine. However, that's not likely to happen between 50+ hour work weeks and engineering classes…  :-\

I would think BIAB would be similar to no-sparge when using bru'n water, in which case you simply put your whole volume in as mash volume and go from there. It seems to work for me fairly well. Granted I don't measure pH but I don't get pH related issues in my beer either.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Water Water everywhere
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2015, 09:58:24 am »
Somehow my copy of Bru'n water yielded a mash pH estimate that was high. mchrispen got the actual values I ended up with in my mash with both the regular and supported versions of Bru'n water.

I'm going to get the supported version of Bru'n water and aim for pH 5.4 on my next beer, see where that gets me. If I can afford a better pH meter that will help as well.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.