Author Topic: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager  (Read 1586 times)

Offline unclebrazzie

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Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« on: April 09, 2015, 07:52:07 AM »
Y'all,

I intend to brew a lager hopped with DrRudi sometime soon.

First time with this hops, and also the first time I'll be brewing a lager. I purchased a pack of Wyeast 2000 XL Budvar for this purpose and here's what I had planned:

For 20 liters of 1.050 SG wort:
2    kg pils
2.8 kg munich

Mash at 67°C for 1 hour or until converted.
50g of DrRudi in mash
10g of DrRudi in FWH

Boil for 70'
30g of DrRudi at t-5'
40g of DrRudi in hopstand
80g of DrRudi in dryhop for 5 days @5-2°C

Cool to 10°C and pitch activated contents of 1 smackpack.
Ferment at 10°C for three weeks.
Increase temp to 13°C for another week (D-rest)
Cool gradually to 2°C over the course of another week (this is where I add the dryhop)

Rack and bottle.

Brewing software estimates 35 IBU but I bet it will be lower as mash hopping tends to give far lower bitterness levels than most brewing software expects.

The result should be a crisp, intensely hoppy lager. Munich should provide a bit of backbone, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't add a bit of carapils to support it some more.

No idea what to expect from that Budvar strain but hoping it won't class with the piney/lemongrassy notes DrRudi's supposed to contribute.

Any thoughts/advice?
Are lager yeasts as harvestable/reusable as ale yeasts?



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Offline erockrph

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2015, 02:17:29 PM »
If you want crisp, I would recommend adding gypsum. If I had to describe the Budvar yeast in one word, I'd go with "soft". It is a great yeast strain for Bohemian Pilsner, but I was rather disappointed when I used it for a hoppy lager with relatively soft water last spring. I was really missing the crispness I was looking for. It was still a good beer, but not what I was hoping for.

I also find that once you get over 20% of the malt bill with Munich, the maltiness starts to compete with the hops. This seems like a lot of Munich for a hoppy lager.

The German Pils style is my preferred starting point for hoppy lagers. A bit more mineral content, and a dry/crisp-finishing yeast really help get a little snap to the bittering. Not to say that this won't be a good recipe as-is, but if you're expecting crisp hoppiness you might be a little disappointed.
Eric B.

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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2015, 03:55:58 PM »
I pretty much agree with everything Eric said. WY2000 will leave behind a more malty character which gives that impression of being soft especially when it is paired with a soft water profile. So for that reason I would use far less munich malt, if any, and crank up the sulfates. I would probably only use 5-10% munich at most.
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 06:22:39 AM »
Solid replies, thanks.

Not necessarily looking for crisp (even though that was the first word that sprang to mind when I tried to describe this), and I've read from the description that WY2000 accentuates malt a bit. I could live with soft as opposed to crisp, which in my mouth (and on my brewing rig) often comes out as harsh.

But I hear you on the Munich. Lacking more pils (might be able to order me some before I get to brew this), I could substitute (all of some of) the munich with pale.

Come to think of it, I kinda like a bit of malt in pilsners. Something slightly chewy to complement the hops.
I could beef it up to become a in imperial pilsner of sorts, where the extra maltiness might be more appropriate, but I'd like to keep it light. I'm obviously no expert on lager beers so perhaps what I'm looking for isn't a pilsner at all.
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2015, 09:16:50 AM »
Also: do I need to apply a different fermenation sequence when using lager yeast?

Normally for ales I do
  • pitch at 20-25°C
  • primary at top temps, optionally with ramping up or down, depending
  • cool to 5°C
  • rack to secondary
  • lager for couple of weeks at cellar temps (13-16°C)
  • optionalle dryhop for a couple of days
  • bottle
  • condition for a couple of weeks

For lagers I thought something like this:
  • pitch at 9-12°C
  • primary around 8-10°C until done (which can take a lot longer than with ale yeast)
  • optionally skim surface of krausen to remove hops debris and break stirred-up trub
  • raise temp to 12-15°C and keep there for a week (D-rest)
  • (crash) cool to 2°C
  • (here's where I'm undecided) rack to secondary (for how long at what temp?)
  • optionally dryhop
  • bottle
  • condition cool/cold for a couple of weeks


Any advice here?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2015, 01:50:23 PM »
Pitch at 7-8C, ferment at 10C. D rest at 15C, start ramping when fermentation is slowing.

Lager fermentations do not have to take langer than 7 days, and taht includes the D rest.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 02:04:10 PM »
You'll want to add a step for fining and likely expect that cold crash to last a little while. WY2000 does not like to floc out. Doesn't have to be months but at least weeks.
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2015, 01:48:28 PM »
Right. Thx guys!
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 07:01:14 AM »
Update.
Recipe got whacked about a bit because of stock issues and feedback from other lager recipes.

Malt bill got updated to
75% pale
10% munich
7% melano
5% wheat malt
3% acidulated

Other than that, recipe was followed right up to point of pitching: smack pack never bloated (yes, the inner activator sachet did ruptur), so I said my prayers to Saint Arnoldus and just dumped the contents into my 9°C wort. Fingers crossed.
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 09:15:42 AM »
Update.

Had to rescue the beer by pitching S-33 I had on hand. Lager brewing takes more preparation and starter-production than I was prepared for, leading to prolongued lagging.

Beer fermented clean eventually, with a bit of both yeasts coming through.

DrRudi doesn't seem to be doing an awful lot, but dryhopping brightened it up. Bottling sometime in the next week/forthnight. More updates when I get a taste.
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2015, 12:38:49 PM »
Follow-up.

Der Rudi has been test-drank by several people, one of them actually a Rudi.

Most were unimpressed and expected more hop flavour. Smell was judged "nice and slightly fruity". Taste was quite mellow, slightly hoppy, with a bitter finish.

Personally, I think it came out nice, but it's a bit delicate. Anything assertive preceding it will wipe the palate enough for Der Rudi not to make much of a splash. On a clean palate, I detected traces of the lager yeast (definitely will rebrew this with proper lager pitching someday), and a fruitiness which, while quite pleasant, needs something more. I reckon something tropical like Galaxy or Equinox or other NZ hops with some Nelson thrown in will make this much more interesting.

Rudi loved it, but part of that may be caused by childlike joy at having a beer named after him :)

Definitely a hops I will use again, though not on its own. I like the beer, but apart from Rudi himself, nobody else really does. No one spat it out either, so maybe they were all just being beer snobs :p
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Offline kmccaf

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2015, 01:31:42 PM »
Thanks for following up on this. I never did get around to brewing with Dr. Rudi. I would love to get some Moutuka, and make a nice CAP with these two.
Kyle M.

Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 11:24:50 AM »
Follow-up.

Given how much Rudi enjoyed his eponymous beer, and how he'll be designing my labes hence forward, I'll be revisiting this recipe sometime soon-ish.

Points of attention will be:
1) lager. Seriously. Next time I'll make a proper lager starter and make damn sure this baby is a hybrid no more.
2) hops. As much as I liked DrRudi all by his lonesome self, I'm convinced he'll make more of a splash when accompanied by some of his fellow-Kiwis. Recommendations would be welcome indeed, but so far, I'm tempted to add Kohatu and/or Motuea. Possibly PacJade.
3) bitterness will be decreased, in favour of a more jubilant hops presence.
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Offline unclebrazzie

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 07:13:00 AM »
Following up with DrRudi 2.0 in full conceptual phase.

I intend to rework this recipe in a month or so.

Recipe will be largely the same, only this time I'll make sure I get that lager yeast properly started 'fore I pitch it. Less bitterness, in favour of more hop aroma and flavour.

Given that the malt bill will be roughly the same, and the focus should be somewhat on DrRudi, d'you guys have any advice on specific NZ hops which might pair well with DrRudi?

I can get the following:
  • Dr. Rudi
  • Green Bullet
  • Kohatu
  • Motueka
  • Nelson Sauvin
  • NZ Cascade
  • Pacific Gem
  • Pacific Jade
  • Rakau
  • Southern Cross
  • Sticklebracht
  • Waimea
  • Wakatu

I also have some Comet in the fridge, as well as some Citra.

The esteemed HomoEccentricus will supply the yeast, which I believe to be Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Der Rudi! Super Alpha lager
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2016, 03:04:08 PM »
Following up with DrRudi 2.0 in full conceptual phase.

I intend to rework this recipe in a month or so.

Recipe will be largely the same, only this time I'll make sure I get that lager yeast properly started 'fore I pitch it. Less bitterness, in favour of more hop aroma and flavour.

Given that the malt bill will be roughly the same, and the focus should be somewhat on DrRudi, d'you guys have any advice on specific NZ hops which might pair well with DrRudi?

I can get the following:
  • Dr. Rudi
  • Green Bullet
  • Kohatu
  • Motueka
  • Nelson Sauvin
  • NZ Cascade
  • Pacific Gem
  • Pacific Jade
  • Rakau
  • Southern Cross
  • Sticklebracht
  • Waimea
  • Wakatu

I also have some Comet in the fridge, as well as some Citra.

The esteemed HomoEccentricus will supply the yeast, which I believe to be Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager.
I guess the question is what you're looking for in hop character. If it's something to compliment the "fruity, but delicate" character, then you want something complimentary that won't overpower it. Motueka is the only one that sticks out on that list. If you have other options then Sterling and Mandarina Bavaria come to mind, and well as good ol' Cascade (I've never used the NZ Cascade, so I don't know if that would work here equally as well).

If you want to accentuate the fruit, then you should be prepared to have the Dr Rudi be just a background note, and use it in a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (with the Dr Rudi being the larger portion) with a fruitier hop like Nelson or Citra. Kohatu and Rakau may work as well, but they seem to me like they would clash with the lager character a bit.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer