[morticaixavier]

It's not so much that we think you are confused, it's just that it seems really unlikely that a contaminant would take over the wort faster than the yeast you are pitching. Add to that the visual descriptions which sound like totally normal fermentations we have to start looking elsewhere becuase what you describe does not match any normal beer spoiling organism behaviour that I have ever heard of. The only thing that you describe that is off is this acid like smell. The only thing you have mentioned that might cause that is the strong acid you are using in your sanitation routine. You have reassured up that you rinsed well but as Keith points out, sometimes you just can't rinse some smells out, even in glass.

Do you have kegs? if so you could try fermenting a batch in a keg, I think those kinds of smells don't stick to Stainless the same way they do with glass.

[stevecrawshaw]

And finally what was the source of your contamination?

Frustratingly, I could never identify it. However since I moved all cold side operations outside and it disappeared I suspect it was spores or airborne bacteria in my cellar. I also changed my routine and equipment so that I could autoclave or heat - treat everything cold side except the fermenter and airlock.
Hope you get it sorted, persevere and this experience will improve your brewing.
cheers
steve

[Slowbrew]

I think we are the ones who are confused by your dilemma.  I know I am very interested in what finally fixes the issues you are seeing. 

This is a tough question to answer on a forum like this so everybody starts grasping at straws.

You mentioned that you know other brewers who are not having this issue.  Have you tried borrowing their brewing equipment and space?  It might just rule out your processes and/or give you another set of data to apply to the hunt.

1) If you can take your ingredients and process and brew on a friends system and don't see a problem, then you know it is location or equipment (and you get some beer ). 

2) After that, you could take your equipment and brew in different location.  If that works then you know it is something around your home causing it. 

3) If it follows you equipment then you might need to replace all your equipment in one shot (at least all the soft plastic).  I would do the first brew session at the location away from home after replacing everything just to be sure it actually fixes the problem.

I really hesitate suggesting you have a buddy brew with their equipment at your place based on how persistent the problem seems to be.  I wouldn't want to be the one who gives this gift to another brewer.   

Good luck in your quest!

Paul

[larsmm]

It's not so much that we think you are confused, it's just that it seems really unlikely that a contaminant would take over the wort faster than the yeast you are pitching. Add to that the visual descriptions which sound like totally normal fermentations we have to start looking elsewhere becuase what you describe does not match any normal beer spoiling organism behaviour that I have ever heard of. The only thing that you describe that is off is this acid like smell. The only thing you have mentioned that might cause that is the strong acid you are using in your sanitation routine. You have reassured up that you rinsed well but as Keith points out, sometimes you just can't rinse some smells out, even in glass.

Do you have kegs? if so you could try fermenting a batch in a keg, I think those kinds of smells don't stick to Stainless the same way they do with glass.

More information. At the end of the last batch  I left in the brewplace a  bottle with aprox. 1 litre of wort inside because I didn't want to fill more the fermenter. I put the lid of the bottle. For the next week the temperature of the room kept bellow 50°F and I didn't notice anything, neither visual not at nose (obviously I removed the lid to smell it). But few day later temperature reached 70 °F for several days and jusg when I was going to remove the lid it was like when you open a bootle of champagne. The lid was in the point to hit my face violently. There had been activity and I hadn't pitched any yeast!!!

[larsmm]

I think we are the ones who are confused by your dilemma.  I know I am very interested in what finally fixes the issues you are seeing. 

This is a tough question to answer on a forum like this so everybody starts grasping at straws.

You mentioned that you know other brewers who are not having this issue.  Have you tried borrowing their brewing equipment and space?  It might just rule out your processes and/or give you another set of data to apply to the hunt.

1) If you can take your ingredients and process and brew on a friends system and don't see a problem, then you know it is location or equipment (and you get some beer ). 

2) After that, you could take your equipment and brew in different location.  If that works then you know it is something around your home causing it. 

3) If it follows you equipment then you might need to replace all your equipment in one shot (at least all the soft plastic).  I would do the first brew session at the location away from home after replacing everything just to be sure it actually fixes the problem.

I really hesitate suggesting you have a buddy brew with their equipment at your place based on how persistent the problem seems to be.  I wouldn't want to be the one who gives this gift to another brewer.   

Good luck in your quest!

Paul

Thank you very much, Paul. Yes, brewing in a different place with the same stuff told me, in case of get a nice beer, than my location has (so I has) a problem. My friend offered his place with my equipment but I didn't wanted to spread the problem,  or al least take that risk. He also offered his equipment but I prefer throw my beer away than a friend has to throw his.

[duboman]

I've been reading this whole post and, well, I'll play the bad guy, quit being a troll........

This whole thread just seems off to me

[euge]

Chalk it up to enthusiasm?

[larsmm]

I've been reading this whole post and, well, I'll play the bad guy, quit being a troll........

This whole thread just seems off to me

I'm sorry, I'm not sure of the meaning of "...seems off to me". Peace and love.

[morticaixavier]

It's not so much that we think you are confused, it's just that it seems really unlikely that a contaminant would take over the wort faster than the yeast you are pitching. Add to that the visual descriptions which sound like totally normal fermentations we have to start looking elsewhere becuase what you describe does not match any normal beer spoiling organism behaviour that I have ever heard of. The only thing that you describe that is off is this acid like smell. The only thing you have mentioned that might cause that is the strong acid you are using in your sanitation routine. You have reassured up that you rinsed well but as Keith points out, sometimes you just can't rinse some smells out, even in glass.

Do you have kegs? if so you could try fermenting a batch in a keg, I think those kinds of smells don't stick to Stainless the same way they do with glass.

More information. At the end of the last batch  I left in the brewplace a  bottle with aprox. 1 litre of wort inside because I didn't want to fill more the fermenter. I put the lid of the bottle. For the next week the temperature of the room kept bellow 50°F and I didn't notice anything, neither visual not at nose (obviously I removed the lid to smell it). But few day later temperature reached 70 °F for several days and jusg when I was going to remove the lid it was like when you open a bootle of champagne. The lid was in the point to hit my face violently. There had been activity and I hadn't pitched any yeast!!!

sounds like you've got some hearty wild yeast in impressive amounts around your place. you should experiment with spontaneous fermentations.

[duboman]

I've been reading this whole post and, well, I'll play the bad guy, quit being a troll........

This whole thread just seems off to me

I'm sorry, I'm not sure of the meaning of "...seems off to me". Peace and love.

It just seems that the issue you are having is just so over the top as many very experienced brewers have posed questions regarding the speed with which your infections are showing up and that some of your descriptors appear to be normal fermentation things we all experience. You have also stated that you've dumped batches prior to them even being done and had a chance to condition properly which seems a bit premature to me and others as well.

I wasn't trying to be snarky or mean spirited.............Infections can be frustrating but when I read threads where it seems to go on and on and the OP seems to be doing everything properly and has tried everything mentioned and continues to state the same issues remain I think troll:)

Obviously the whole meat locker thing was a bad idea but after everything you have done and the products you are using I'm having a hard time understanding how you keep having the same infection issue. Without going back through the thread to see if you have scrapped everything you own for brewing and completely disinfected your brew space, have you? You might just have to start all over again if you truly are having this type embedded infection issue and then completely re-evaluate your entire process starting with sanitation from start to finish.

Cheers!
Gary

[larsmm]

I've been reading this whole post and, well, I'll play the bad guy, quit being a troll........

This whole thread just seems off to me

I'm sorry, I'm not sure of the meaning of "...seems off to me". Peace and love.

It just seems that the issue you are having is just so over the top as many very experienced brewers have posed questions regarding the speed with which your infections are showing up and that some of your descriptors appear to be normal fermentation things we all experience. You have also stated that you've dumped batches prior to them even being done and had a chance to condition properly which seems a bit premature to me and others as well.

I wasn't trying to be snarky or mean spirited.............Infections can be frustrating but when I read threads where it seems to go on and on and the OP seems to be doing everything properly and has tried everything mentioned and continues to state the same issues remain I think troll:)

Obviously the whole meat locker thing was a bad idea but after everything you have done and the products you are using I'm having a hard time understanding how you keep having the same infection issue. Without going back through the thread to see if you have scrapped everything you own for brewing and completely disinfected your brew space, have you? You might just have to start all over again if you truly are having this type embedded infection issue and then completely re-evaluate your entire process starting with sanitation from start to finish.

Cheers!
Gary

Thaks, Gary. I'm gonna try to understand you but let me summarize.

Although I haven't worked in that area, I have a degree in Chemistry. So perhaps I'm not prepared to brew, but I know something about "chemicals".

Many of you have told me that the acid odor comes from rests of acetic acid not well rinsed, but first times (maybe 3 or 4) of contamination I didn't use this acid. So, at least the first times didn't come from the acetic acid. Furthermore, I prepare a solution 0,3% of acetic acid and 0,3% hydrogene peroxide; many people could drink it and not notice any sour taste. Furthermore, part of the acid is neutralized by the caustic soda solution used previously. Furthermore, I rinsed all the stuff thoroughly, and after that I soak it with chemipro oxi. I'm gonna follow your advices and from now on I'm not going to use acetic acid, but I'm sure that acetic acid is not the source of the sourness in my beer.

Have you ever worked or studyed in a lab and, openned a bottle of hydrocloric acid and smelt its vapour? Well, I said that what I get it's a bit similar, a bit softer, of course (in other case I'd have invented a new way to get strong acids). The first four times, without any kind of contamination, I didn't notice anything similar. And this is always the same, using 4 different yeasts, several different malts, using bottled water and filtered tap water...

I said that on the top of the fermenter, mix with the krausen, there is a bit white foam, like soft soap bubbles. Four first times there's no foam, just krausen. For me, it's not normal.

Some of you encorauge me to ensure that it's a contamination actually. When I taste the beer I notice a sour taste which persists some minutes in my tongue. If I let the beer get a bit older (just one week), the sourness became harder. Maybe it's not enough time, but the acid odor is also stronger. If it wasn't a contamination, I'd say the odor would be softer. In the four first times I didn't notice neither the odor nor the sour taste, just after seven days from brewday.

I've also said that I left a bit of wort in a bottle with the lid of the bottle. Next week the temperature of the room kept bellow 50°F and I didn't notice anything. But when the temperature reached 70 °F for several days something happened. When I tried to remove the lid, the lid was shot violently (I said it was like a bottle of champagne, but no liquid went out of the bottle). There had been activity and I hadn't pitched any yeast.

I'd like to say you: "I didn't sanitize the chiller plate", or "I pitched at 150 ºF", or "I forgot to close the fermenter". But it's not my case. What I haven't done yet it's change the brew place or buy a new full stuff. But it's almost impossible to change my brew place and I'd like to keep the equipment I have right now instead of invest a lot of money (for me) again.

Maybe this thread seems off to you, but I have to try to solve a huge problem and I thought this was a nice place to find a solution. For those who are expertised and can brew as a play, this can be boring. In that case, feel free to ignore the thread. There are thousands of threads in the forum that can charm you.

Thank you very much.

[larsmm]

I admire your willingness to keep going after so many failed batches.  I'm pretty sure I would have given up by this point.

I don't know that it would help but can you post a couple of the recipes you are using and maybe some pictures of your equipment and brewing space?  It might trigger something that hasn't been thought of yet.

Paul

Hi Paul. Last recipe I brewed:

- 4,0 kg Pale
- 0,5 kg Munich
- 0,5 kg Wheat
- 0,2 kg CaraPils
- 0,2 kg CaraAmber

Mashing 3:1 for 75' at 151 ºF
No mash out
Saparging with water at 172 ºF

Boiling: 75 minutes from the moment that begins to boil.
Citra at 75' to get 25 IBUs
Citra at 15' to get 10 IBIs
Cascade and Citra at 1' (15 g + 15 g)

Chilling the wort till 68 ºF
Pitchign Danstar Bry-97 re-hydrated

Ferm Temp: 66 ºF

[Joe Sr.]

It sounds like you've been pretty thorough in chasing this down.  I think you've gotten some good advice here, but you may have exhausted almost everything we can offer.  Trying to diagnose the problem without seeing, tasting, and smelling the problem is near impossible.

I say it comes down to a process of elimination.  What remains consistent amongst all the batches that have been contaminated?  It sounds like two things: 1) the brewing/fermenting location and 2) the equipment.

Change one or the other.  Then change the other.

I would recommend brewing small batches for these tests, if you can, to save money and heartache.

[HoosierBrew]

It sounds like you've been pretty thorough in chasing this down.  I think you've gotten some good advice here, but you may have exhausted almost everything we can offer.  Trying to diagnose the problem without seeing, tasting, and smelling the problem is near impossible.

I say it comes down to a process of elimination.  What remains consistent amongst all the batches that have been contaminated?  It sounds like two things: 1) the brewing/fermenting location and 2) the equipment.

Change one or the other.  Then change the other.

I would recommend brewing small batches for these tests, if you can, to save money and heartache.

+1.  Good advice.

[JT]

You could have a lacto bug causing these issues, I just don't know how it could be getting in your beer.  I'd recommend getting a decent pH meter and recording samples (measured at room temperature) of your mash, sparge, post boil, and periodically throughout fermentation.  I ferment in a very small chest freezer which is temp controlled.  If I open that door, stick my head in and breathe the co2 can just about knock me down and burns the nostrils.  Keep this in mind.