[unclebrazzie]

In the pursuit of something resembling historic porter (I know, I'm chasing rainbows here but it keeps me young and happy), I came across references to Cocculus indicus as an adulterant. This poisonous berry was used to render beer more potent and give it inebriating qualities not derived from the fermentation process.

I can only shudder at the hangovers those 1780s porters must have caused.

Does anyone here know what Coccculus indicus would taste like and what I could use as a substitute? I'm not looking for narcotic properties per se; just curious as to what its flavour contributions might have been.

[klickitat jim]

Try emailing Andrew Zimmerman?

[unclebrazzie]

Try emailing Andrew Zimmerman?

You mean Zimmern, right?

[klickitat jim]

Ya that's it

[unclebrazzie]

Mail the info address on his website. You never know...

[homoeccentricus]

From "Designing Great Beers": "Many of the other adulterants added to porter were designed to provide a stimulating or narcotizing effect that would give the drinker the impression of alcoholic potency without this cost. The most infamous of these additions was Cocculus indicus."

So it seems like it was not the flavor that was important, but the effect of the poison in the berries as a substitute for alcohol.

Plus: https://books.google.be/books?id=B_ujAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=cocculus+bitter+porter&source=bl&ots=9ZjryweiKu&sig=Vz63hhxf0DkvERBbbkN3QHhWMyI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KdBAVavzMui27AbGtoHYAQ&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%20cocculus%20indicus%2C%20a%20very%20bitter%20drug&f=false

Cocculus was a very bitter drug, and "often serves as a substitute for hops".

[pete b]

Well I certainly wouldn't use the real thing:
Medicinal Action and Uses---The powdered berries are sometimes used as an ointment for destroying lice; the entire fruits are used to stupefy fish, being thrown on the water for that purpose. Picrotoxin is a powerful convulsive poison used principally to check night sweats in phthisis by its action in accelerating respiration, but it is not always successful. It was at one time used to adulterate beers, increasing their reputation as intoxicants; it is an antidote in Morphine poisoning.
I'm sure the flavor contribution was extreme bitterness.
If you want a more nuanced and safer, and IMO, good tasting intoxicant enhancer try yarrow. It has a very slight euphoric effect, much better than a narcotic effect.

[erockrph]

Maybe some wormwood? Just be careful, that stuff is nasty bitter.

[pete b]

Maybe some wormwood? Just be careful, that stuff is nasty bitter.

My girlfriend made an absinthe inspired mead with wormwood. After about 5 years it was actually OK. Eric's right, you need very little.
If you haven't already, check out Buhner's "Sacred and Healing Herbal Beers". Its a great read.

[unclebrazzie]

Would mugwort be a substitute for the substitute wormwood?

[morticaixavier]

Maybe some wormwood? Just be careful, that stuff is nasty bitter.

a friend of mine puts  a_little bit of wormwood in his pale ale and IPA. it adds a really braceing bitterness that's complimentary but different than hop bitterness... and the green fairies are entertaining too

[erockrph]

Maybe some wormwood? Just be careful, that stuff is nasty bitter.

a friend of mine puts  a_little bit of wormwood in his pale ale and IPA. it adds a really braceing bitterness that's complimentary but different than hop bitterness... and the green fairies are entertaining too

Right. That was part of the reason I mentioned wormwood as a substitute for the Cocculus. Although it is doubtful that the alleged effects of the "green fairy" are truly due to the wormwood, rather than the adulterants that were in common use a century ago.

[69franx]

Maybe some wormwood? Just be careful, that stuff is nasty bitter.

a friend of mine puts  a_little bit of wormwood in his pale ale and IPA. it adds a really braceing bitterness that's complimentary but different than hop bitterness... and the green fairies are entertaining too

Jonathan, what does a _little look like measurement wise in a typical 5 gallon batch if I ever feel the need to try this out?

[morticaixavier]

Maybe some wormwood? Just be careful, that stuff is nasty bitter.

a friend of mine puts  a_little bit of wormwood in his pale ale and IPA. it adds a really braceing bitterness that's complimentary but different than hop bitterness... and the green fairies are entertaining too

Jonathan, what does a _little look like measurement wise in a typical 5 gallon batch if I ever feel the need to try this out?

this friend actually plays that particular card pretty close to his chest but I would guess it's in the single digit grams per 5 gallons

[69franx]

Thanks, just need to experiment if I ever get around to wanting to try it out