Author Topic: Original Dubbel  (Read 1394 times)

Derek

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Original Dubbel
« on: May 07, 2015, 11:51:51 PM »
8 lbs. Dman Pilsner
3 lbs. Dman Pale
1.5 lbs. Avangard Munich
0.5 lb. Briess Chocolate
2 lbs. CS D-90
0.5 lb. CS D-45
Either WLP550 or WLP575 (Belgian Ale Blend)

Haven't plugged it into my excel sheet but shooting for ~1.070 OG and ~1.012 FG (.058*131=~7.6%). I'll tweek amounts as necessary.

LBHS has all my ingredients.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 11:59:09 PM by Derek »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2015, 05:05:45 AM »
I'd skip the chocolate malt. If you need more color, use darker Candi Syrups and/or Special B in its place. In fact, even if you don't feel like you need the color you might want to consider some Special-B and/or D-180 anyways. Those two ingredients really bring the dark fruit character you find in a dubbel.
Eric B.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2015, 11:49:05 AM »
I'd skip the chocolate malt. If you need more color, use darker Candi Syrups and/or Special B in its place. In fact, even if you don't feel like you need the color you might want to consider some Special-B and/or D-180 anyways. Those two ingredients really bring the dark fruit character you find in a dubbel.

Totally agree. Chocolate malt will give it a brown porter character that I bet you're not after.  +1 to more Special B and D180 - those two things are pure dubbel to me.
Jon H.

Derek

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2015, 01:04:41 PM »
I'd skip the chocolate malt. If you need more color, use darker Candi Syrups and/or Special B in its place. In fact, even if you don't feel like you need the color you might want to consider some Special-B and/or D-180 anyways. Those two ingredients really bring the dark fruit character you find in a dubbel.

I've read that the Briess Chocolate malt is actually a little sweeter and has some chocolate flavor. Is this true?

I may sub it for some Special B. Maybe 1/4 lb.

Derek

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2015, 01:07:54 PM »
I'd skip the chocolate malt. If you need more color, use darker Candi Syrups and/or Special B in its place. In fact, even if you don't feel like you need the color you might want to consider some Special-B and/or D-180 anyways. Those two ingredients really bring the dark fruit character you find in a dubbel.

Totally agree. Chocolate malt will give it a brown porter character that I bet you're not after.  +1 to more Special B and D180 - those two things are pure dubbel to me.

I guess i'm going for a certain character. I had an older bottle of Westmalle Dubbel one time, past it's best by date by around 1 year, and the dark fruit flavor was subdued, it had a very chocolate/caramel nose, and the flavor was what you expect from a dubbel or dark strong but maltier and almost chocolately. It still had those raisiney, plumy, dark fruit flavors but they were subdued and more subtle.

I'm assuming aging played a part so I am sort of looking to replicate that. Any thoughts? Does what I said make sense?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2015, 01:19:44 PM »
I'd skip the chocolate malt. If you need more color, use darker Candi Syrups and/or Special B in its place. In fact, even if you don't feel like you need the color you might want to consider some Special-B and/or D-180 anyways. Those two ingredients really bring the dark fruit character you find in a dubbel.

Totally agree. Chocolate malt will give it a brown porter character that I bet you're not after.  +1 to more Special B and D180 - those two things are pure dubbel to me.

I guess i'm going for a certain character. I had an older bottle of Westmalle Dubbel one time, past it's best by date by around 1 year, and the dark fruit flavor was subdued, it had a very chocolate/caramel nose, and the flavor was what you expect from a dubbel or dark strong but maltier and almost chocolately. It still had those raisiney, plumy, dark fruit flavors but they were subdued and more subtle.

I'm assuming aging played a part so I am sort of looking to replicate that. Any thoughts? Does what I said make sense?

It makes sense, it's just that chocolate malt, regardless of the maltster, has a definite roast character that I don't find in dubbels. You could try 3 or 4 oz to see if it approximates what you had. But I think the malty Munich you're using, together with the D180 and special B will give you, aside from dark fruit, a deep dark sort of chocolatey character. I definitely wouldn't use the 8 oz of chocolate, if any. Just my $0.02.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 01:22:09 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Derek

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2015, 01:26:24 PM »
Thank you. I think that knowing that makes it easier to abandon the idea of Choco malt in these styles. I had heard Briess Choco was actually chocolately but it seems thats all relative to the taste buds of certain people.

In my studying and research it seems that what you have said about syrups and caramel malts holds true for obtaining a true choco flavor, if only slightly. I think I may sub some Briess C120 or Dmans Special B, around 1/4 lb. for the chocolate and adjust the recipe for gravity.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2015, 01:36:47 PM »
I guess i'm going for a certain character. I had an older bottle of Westmalle Dubbel one time, past it's best by date by around 1 year, and the dark fruit flavor was subdued, it had a very chocolate/caramel nose, and the flavor was what you expect from a dubbel or dark strong but maltier and almost chocolately. It still had those raisiney, plumy, dark fruit flavors but they were subdued and more subtle.

I'm assuming aging played a part so I am sort of looking to replicate that. Any thoughts? Does what I said make sense?
It's been a while since I've had a Westmalle Dubbel, but I do seem to recall a touch of roast/chocolate there. A half pound of chocolate malt might be a bit much, though. I'd start at maybe 3-4 ounces and then work up from there. I think you'll probably want to include at least a small amount of a dark crystal malt to add some of that caramel character you're looking for. Special B may do it, but I don't know if a Crystal malt in the 80-120L range might be closer to what you're shooting for. Those get you more in a caramel/toffee range with a bit less of the fig/raisin than Special B. I'd go with maybe a half pound of whatever Crystal malt you choose, and then dial it in from there.

Just know that it is doubtful that you'll nail this dead-on with the first go around. So don't agonize over any particular detail. Your first shot will hopefully get you in the ballpark, and you can dial it in from there. It sounds like you have a good picture of what you're shooting for. This will be a helpful (and tasty) recipe to dial in over time.

Make sure you keep us posted with your results!
Eric B.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2015, 02:00:38 PM »
Makes me want to buy some Westmalle Dubbel. Haven't had it in forever. There's definitely a chocolate character, but it never seemed like a roast character to me per se. I could be wrong. Any excuse to buy Belgian beer works for me.    ;)
Jon H.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2015, 02:16:43 PM »
Makes me want to buy some Westmalle Dubbel. Haven't had it in forever. There's definitely a chocolate character, but it never seemed like a roast character to me per se. I could be wrong. Any excuse to buy Belgian beer works for me.    ;)
Indeed. I might even have one aging in my basement with a couple of years on it. Might be time to dip into it.
Eric B.

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Derek

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 02:26:18 PM »
I think the confusion for new brewers like me is that Chocolate malt = roastiness not chocolate flavor. The chocolate flavor, from what I have read is derived from Candi Sugar, Dark caramel malts and the nuttiness of say Munich malt. It's not the easiest distinction to make right away but the writing is on the wall if you view recipes and specifications to see the patterns.

I've made preliminary inputs to the Excel sheet I have developed and adjusted the recipe as follows:

8 lbs. Dman Pilsner @ 1.037
3 lbs. Dman Pale @ 1.037
1 lb. Avangard Munich @ 1.038
0.25 lb. Dman Special B @ 1.034
2 lbs. D-90 @ 1.032
1 lb.  D-45 @ 1.032

~1.063 Pre-boil
~1.073 O.G.
~1.015 F.G.
~80% AA
~75% Eff
~7.62% ABV

I estimated about 25 IBU with:

0.5 oz. Saaz (FWH)
1 oz. Challenger (60)
0.5 oz. Saaz (15)
0.5 oz. Saaz (Flameout)

I'm going to use Either 530, 550 or 575 for yeast.

Derek

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2015, 02:29:07 PM »
Makes me want to buy some Westmalle Dubbel. Haven't had it in forever. There's definitely a chocolate character, but it never seemed like a roast character to me per se. I could be wrong. Any excuse to buy Belgian beer works for me.    ;)
Indeed. I might even have one aging in my basement with a couple of years on it. Might be time to dip into it.

I'm telling you, I bought this "Desert Island" Westmalle bottle from Wegman's and it was dusty. At least a year past the best buy date and it was glorious. I had a 750 ml bottle recently at a wedding with my buddies (of course I brought my own beer to a wedding: Corona did'nt seem appealing) and it was delicious, but definitely lacked those flavors I described. I'm assuming the aging softens and de-emphasizes those Belgian esters and lets the choco/caramel/toffee flavors come forward.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2015, 02:32:53 PM »
That recipe looks really solid now .  BTW, 'chocolate' more often than not, refers to a color designation than a true flavor profile. It's roasted to a chocolate color. Pretty confusing.
Jon H.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2015, 03:29:13 PM »
BLAM notes that Westmalle dubbel has "dark malt for 'aroma'" in addition to caramel malt. It doesn't specify any further but Candy Syrup Inc. has in its clone recipe--using its products of course--Dingemans Mout Roost 900 which is a chocolate malt. Their clone recipes have positive reviews and probably not far off the mark. I'd suspect the recipe has a little more choc malt than what you would use for color adjustment. The Candy Syrup recipe has chocolate malt around 3.5%.
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Re: Original Dubbel
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2015, 03:47:50 PM »
I was sitting here at work wishing I had my copy of BLAM here.  Good info. I definitely need to find a bottle of Westmalle Dubbel tonight now. I'm assuming there must be some subtle character there. Regardless, great beer.
Jon H.