Author Topic: RO sparge water  (Read 1988 times)

Offline brewinhard

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RO sparge water
« on: May 09, 2015, 06:50:50 PM »
Is it necessary to acidify 100% RO water for sparging to bring it down to 5.5-6 pH or can the RO water simply be used as is?

And another quick brewing salts question - I am brewing up an IPA with Brun water pale ale profile and have sodium listed for my mash water as 8 ppm but the provided profile recommends 25 ppm.  Is this necessary to properly adjust or can I just go with what I have already?

Thanks!

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2015, 07:31:25 PM »
Is it necessary to acidify 100% RO water for sparging to bring it down to 5.5-6 pH or can the RO water simply be used as is?

And another quick brewing salts question - I am brewing up an IPA with Brun water pale ale profile and have sodium listed for my mash water as 8 ppm but the provided profile recommends 25 ppm.  Is this necessary to properly adjust or can I just go with what I have already?

Thanks!
no need for sodium in mash so unless your are bumping PH up with baking soda, let it be as is from RO contribution.

acidify sparge water- depends but typically I do not unless i want a lower mash PH  in kettle vs mash PH. I batch sparge, and Ive never come close to sparge runnings at 5.6 +

if you are adding gypsum or calcium chloride or epsom to RO sparge water, its already realizing a drop in PH.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2015, 07:34:27 PM »
Is it necessary to acidify 100% RO water for sparging to bring it down to 5.5-6 pH or can the RO water simply be used as is?

And another quick brewing salts question - I am brewing up an IPA with Brun water pale ale profile and have sodium listed for my mash water as 8 ppm but the provided profile recommends 25 ppm.  Is this necessary to properly adjust or can I just go with what I have already?

Thanks!
no need for sodium in mash so unless your are bumping PH up with baking soda, let it be as is from RO contribution.

acidify sparge water- depends but typically I do not unless i want a lower mash PH  in kettle vs mash PH. I batch sparge, and Ive never come close to sparge runnings at 5.6 +

if you are adding gypsum or calcium chloride or epsom to RO sparge mash water, its already realizing a drop in PH.


edit: if you are using bru'n water, it will guide you on your RO water and sparge acid, if necessary.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 10:22:00 PM by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2015, 08:23:13 PM »
Does Brunwater adjust for salts added to sparge water reducing the pH?  I did not see where that is indicated.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2015, 08:24:30 PM »
Is it necessary to acidify 100% RO water for sparging to bring it down to 5.5-6 pH or can the RO water simply be used as is?

And another quick brewing salts question - I am brewing up an IPA with Brun water pale ale profile and have sodium listed for my mash water as 8 ppm but the provided profile recommends 25 ppm.  Is this necessary to properly adjust or can I just go with what I have already?

Thanks!
no need for sodium in mash so unless your are bumping PH up with baking soda, let it be as is from RO contribution.

acidify sparge water- depends but typically I do not unless i want a lower mash PH  in kettle vs mash PH. I batch sparge, and Ive never come close to sparge runnings at 5.6 +

if you are adding gypsum or calcium chloride or epsom to RO sparge water, its already realizing a drop in PH.


edit: if you are using bru'n water, it will guide you on your RO water and sparge acid, if necessary.

Can you explain how just adding those to water drops the pH?
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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RO sparge water
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2015, 08:27:32 PM »
? When I add gyp, cacl and eps the ph drops..., is this not correct?

Answered my own question... In mash only
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 08:29:43 PM by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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RO sparge water
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2015, 08:38:14 PM »
Does Brunwater adjust for salts added to sparge water reducing the pH?  I did not see where that is indicated.
No brain cramp on my part!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 08:58:45 PM by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline mabrungard

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2015, 08:56:57 PM »
Ken, you got it correct. Salts in the sparging water do not cause that water's pH to drop. pH drop is only a product of the phytin reaction in the wort.

While that sparging water will end up in the mash, the resulting wort dilution and replacement with sparging water means that there ends up being very little phytin in the mash to react with. So we can't even rely on those salts to keep the pH low during the sparging step.

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.
Martin B
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2015, 09:01:40 PM »

Ken, you got it correct. Salts in the sparging water do not cause that water's pH to drop. pH drop is only a product of the phytin reaction in the wort.

While that sparging water will end up in the mash, the resulting wort dilution and replacement with sparging water means that there ends up being very little phytin in the mash to react with. So we can't even rely on those salts to keep the pH low during the sparging step.

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.
Only got it after I self corrected after jeff mad me think!
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline brewinhard

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2015, 10:39:04 PM »
Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 10:42:12 PM by brewinhard »

Offline breweite

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2015, 11:02:16 PM »
...so what about tannins? If im pouring 168 degree, straight RO water over my grains for BIAB, aren't tannins going to be released if RO pH isn't low enough?
Cheers from Austin, Tejas!

Offline mabrungard

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2015, 12:28:04 AM »
...so what about tannins? If im pouring 168 degree, straight RO water over my grains for BIAB, aren't tannins going to be released if RO pH isn't low enough?

Nope. With almost no alkalinity, the pH of RO is like a feather in the wind. With any external acid, its pH drops like a rock.

Another important fact is that RO water almost never has a pH about 7. In most cases, the pH of RO water is under 6. Part of the reason can be due to dissolved CO2 in the raw water that easily makes through the RO membrane into the product water. That dissolved CO2 along with the very low alkalinity means that carbonic acid is formed, which quickly depresses the water pH. I had an unfortunate client that called me in too late who had this problem with their brewing water and the resulting beers came out very acidic. With nearly 300 bbls of acidic beer that they ultimately had to waste, the economic impact was the end for that brewery.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

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Offline breweite

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2015, 01:07:48 AM »
...so what about tannins? If im pouring 168 degree, straight RO water over my grains for BIAB, aren't tannins going to be released if RO pH isn't low enough?

Nope. With almost no alkalinity, the pH of RO is like a feather in the wind. With any external acid, its pH drops like a rock.

Another important fact is that RO water almost never has a pH about 7. In most cases, the pH of RO water is under 6. Part of the reason can be due to dissolved CO2 in the raw water that easily makes through the RO membrane into the product water. That dissolved CO2 along with the very low alkalinity means that carbonic acid is formed, which quickly depresses the water pH. I had an unfortunate client that called me in too late who had this problem with their brewing water and the resulting beers came out very acidic. With nearly 300 bbls of acidic beer that they ultimately had to waste, the economic impact was the end for that brewery.
This is very helpful.  I usually squeeze the bag to avoid acidifying my RO water, and this has been fine.. I've done it in the past and it increase my efficiency a couple of points but I was worried about tannins so I stopped the practice. I think I'll give it another shot.  Thank you.
Cheers from Austin, Tejas!

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2015, 01:17:29 AM »

Ken, you got it correct. Salts in the sparging water do not cause that water's pH to drop. pH drop is only a product of the phytin reaction in the wort.

While that sparging water will end up in the mash, the resulting wort dilution and replacement with sparging water means that there ends up being very little phytin in the mash to react with. So we can't even rely on those salts to keep the pH low during the sparging step.

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.
Only got it after I self corrected after jeff mad me think!
Some times one needs that little prodding, and you did well.

I have seen too many say over the years, add gypsum to acidifying the sparge water. Not correct.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: RO sparge water
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2015, 01:22:47 AM »


Ken, you got it correct. Salts in the sparging water do not cause that water's pH to drop. pH drop is only a product of the phytin reaction in the wort.

While that sparging water will end up in the mash, the resulting wort dilution and replacement with sparging water means that there ends up being very little phytin in the mash to react with. So we can't even rely on those salts to keep the pH low during the sparging step.

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.
Only got it after I self corrected after jeff mad me think!
Some times one needs that little prodding, and you did well.

I have seen too many say over the years, add gypsum to acidifying the sparge water. Not correct.

Appreciate when someone corrects me... I too am prone to confusion and error and lapses!   
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest