[Wort-H.O.G.]

...so what about tannins? If im pouring 168 degree, straight RO water over my grains for BIAB, aren't tannins going to be released if RO pH isn't low enough?

Nope. With almost no alkalinity, the pH of RO is like a feather in the wind. With any external acid, its pH drops like a rock.

Another important fact is that RO water almost never has a pH about 7. In most cases, the pH of RO water is under 6. Part of the reason can be due to dissolved CO2 in the raw water that easily makes through the RO membrane into the product water. That dissolved CO2 along with the very low alkalinity means that carbonic acid is formed, which quickly depresses the water pH. I had an unfortunate client that called me in too late who had this problem with their brewing water and the resulting beers came out very acidic. With nearly 300 bbls of acidic beer that they ultimately had to waste, the economic impact was the end for that brewery.

Martin- whats the shelf life of lactic acid...does its strength diminish at a predicable rate?

[hopfenundmalz]

Ken, you got it correct. Salts in the sparging water do not cause that water's pH to drop. pH drop is only a product of the phytin reaction in the wort.

While that sparging water will end up in the mash, the resulting wort dilution and replacement with sparging water means that there ends up being very little phytin in the mash to react with. So we can't even rely on those salts to keep the pH low during the sparging step.

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

Only got it after I self corrected after jeff mad me think!

Some times one needs that little prodding, and you did well.

I have seen too many say over the years, add gypsum to acidifying the sparge water. Not correct.

Appreciate when someone corrects me... I too am prone to confusion and error and lapses!

I'm an old fart, I have all those going on and some more!

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Sad but true...realizing It more and more each day!

[HoosierBrew]

Sad but true...realizing It more and more each day!

No joke !

[JT]

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?

There is no need to acidify low alkalinity sparge water, like RO or distilled, regardless of its pH.  Even if the pH is high, the low alkalinity will allow it to drop easily and rapidly when it hits your grain bed. 
Whether you acidify the mash or not still depends on your target pH and what your grain bill looks like.  If using RO or distilled in the mash, the pH will simply be easier to adjust, again because of the low alkalinity. 

[toby]

What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?

Is that even possible?

[Wort-H.O.G.]

What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?

Is that even possible?

 boy i dont think?? The RO system would have to be non functional for that to happen.

[mabrungard]

Lactic acid has a very long shelf life. I've done some research on that subject a while ago and wrote about it somewhere. It's probably in either the Water Knowledge page of Bru'n Water or on the Bru'n Water Facebook page.

[brewinhard]

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?

There is no need to acidify low alkalinity sparge water, like RO or distilled, regardless of its pH.  Even if the pH is high, the low alkalinity will allow it to drop easily and rapidly when it hits your grain bed. 
Whether you acidify the mash or not still depends on your target pH and what your grain bill looks like.  If using RO or distilled in the mash, the pH will simply be easier to adjust, again because of the low alkalinity.

So when using RO water, most adjustments can be made via the use of salts as opposed to acid additions?  Unless of course one is looking for a lower mash pH that the salt additions cannot provide without pushing the profile too far out of whack?

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?

There is no need to acidify low alkalinity sparge water, like RO or distilled, regardless of its pH.  Even if the pH is high, the low alkalinity will allow it to drop easily and rapidly when it hits your grain bed. 
Whether you acidify the mash or not still depends on your target pH and what your grain bill looks like.  If using RO or distilled in the mash, the pH will simply be easier to adjust, again because of the low alkalinity.

So when using RO water, most adjustments can be made via the use of salts as opposed to acid additions?  Unless of course one is looking for a lower mash pH that the salt additions cannot provide without pushing the profile too far out of whack?

Salts will only do so much in the mash. Focus on your target additions for the beer you are making, and use something like lactic acid to lower PH, or baking soda to raise PH in the mash.

[JT]

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?

There is no need to acidify low alkalinity sparge water, like RO or distilled, regardless of its pH.  Even if the pH is high, the low alkalinity will allow it to drop easily and rapidly when it hits your grain bed. 
Whether you acidify the mash or not still depends on your target pH and what your grain bill looks like.  If using RO or distilled in the mash, the pH will simply be easier to adjust, again because of the low alkalinity.

So when using RO water, most adjustments can be made via the use of salts as opposed to acid additions?  Unless of course one is looking for a lower mash pH that the salt additions cannot provide without pushing the profile too far out of whack?

Salts will only do so much in the mash. Focus on your target additions for the beer you are making, and use something like lactic acid to lower PH, or baking soda to raise PH in the mash.

I agree with Ken here, but yes you can often get away with not using acid, depending on your intended water profile and grain bill.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?

There is no need to acidify low alkalinity sparge water, like RO or distilled, regardless of its pH.  Even if the pH is high, the low alkalinity will allow it to drop easily and rapidly when it hits your grain bed. 
Whether you acidify the mash or not still depends on your target pH and what your grain bill looks like.  If using RO or distilled in the mash, the pH will simply be easier to adjust, again because of the low alkalinity.

So when using RO water, most adjustments can be made via the use of salts as opposed to acid additions?  Unless of course one is looking for a lower mash pH that the salt additions cannot provide without pushing the profile too far out of whack?

Salts will only do so much in the mash. Focus on your target additions for the beer you are making, and use something like lactic acid to lower PH, or baking soda to raise PH in the mash.

I agree with Ken here, but yes you can often get away with not using acid, depending on your intended water profile and grain bill.

yes very true. just didn't want him to try and add crap ton of sulfate or calcium chloride to drive down the mash PH...if you dont get where you want within your water profile target, then lactic acid works well to bump down, and baking soda to bump up.

[JT]

Regarding the need to acidify RO water for sparging use: No, you don't need to acidify. The primary thing of concern with sparging water is that it have low alkalinity. Good RO water already has very low alkalinity. So the need to acidify is gone. Another consideration is that with the very low alkalinity of RO water, it would only take a drop or two of most acids to cause the pH to plummet.

So making sure the pH of the sparge water is below 6.0 does not matter when using RO water that is low in alkalinity?  What if the RO water has a higher pH value, say around 8?  Is this also true when mashing and sparging a dark roasted grist providing the mash water is properly adjusted?

There is no need to acidify low alkalinity sparge water, like RO or distilled, regardless of its pH.  Even if the pH is high, the low alkalinity will allow it to drop easily and rapidly when it hits your grain bed. 
Whether you acidify the mash or not still depends on your target pH and what your grain bill looks like.  If using RO or distilled in the mash, the pH will simply be easier to adjust, again because of the low alkalinity.

So when using RO water, most adjustments can be made via the use of salts as opposed to acid additions?  Unless of course one is looking for a lower mash pH that the salt additions cannot provide without pushing the profile too far out of whack?

Salts will only do so much in the mash. Focus on your target additions for the beer you are making, and use something like lactic acid to lower PH, or baking soda to raise PH in the mash.

I agree with Ken here, but yes you can often get away with not using acid, depending on your intended water profile and grain bill.

yes very true. just didn't want him to try and add crap ton of sulfate or calcium chloride to drive down the mash PH...if you dont get where you want within your water profile target, then lactic acid works well to bump down, and baking soda to bump up.

+1 to this.  Also, if you're using a lot of dark malt, switching to pickling lime instead of baking soda works great to raise the pH without adding sodium.  I was super cautious the first time I used it (don't open the bag and inhale) but have no problem using it whenever needed now.  As Martin has pointed out in some of his posts and on Facebook, the powdered version tends to be a little bit less effective than predicted due to absorbing moisture from the air.  IMO that's just an insurance policy to not add too much. 

[HoosierBrew]

FWIW, I add the salts I need to hit my profile first into the software, and then add acid or baking soda to hit my target pH. Lots of ways to get there, though.

[erockrph]

FWIW, I add the salts I need to hit my profile first into the software, and then add acid or baking soda to hit my target pH. Lots of ways to get there, though.

Same here. As a matter of fact, the most current revision of Kai's water calculator on Brewer's Friend lets you specify your acid and target mash pH, then calculates the amount of acid needed. It makes it easy to focus on salts specifically for a flavor profile, without worrying about pH.