Author Topic: Saison 2.0  (Read 1487 times)

Offline Phil_M

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Saison 2.0
« on: May 13, 2015, 10:52:38 AM »
Time for round two.

I'm really pleased with how well wyeast 3724 worked on my recent saison, so I'm going to try this again. The way I see it, I can take two paths: Either go for simplicity and use 100% pils malt, or try an build a maltier beer.

I'm doing the latter first:

60% Belgian Pils Malt (Dingemans)
20% Munich Type I (Weyermann)
15% Wheat Malt (Weyermann)
5% Carafoam (Weyermann)

Haven't worked out the hops yet, but I'll be aiming for 35 IBUs. Aiming for a 1.060 OG.

So here are my questions:

For those with 3724 experience, about what final gravity should I expect from this grain bill?

I've always wanted to try carafoam, and Toby's recent bio post reminded me of it. But do I really need it with that wheat? If I removed it I'd likely just up the wheat malt to 20%.

I'm considering adding some Brett B towards the end of fermentation. When would be the best time to pitch this, especially considering that I'll be fermenting the beer at 90 degrees? I was thinking of transfering to secondary when the beer gets down to between 1.020 and 1.015, pitching the bret, and finishing fermentation at my usual closet temperature of about 71 degrees.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 10:54:24 AM by Phil_M »
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 04:13:29 PM »
For those with 3724 experience, about what final gravity should I expect from this grain bill?

I've always wanted to try carafoam, and Toby's recent bio post reminded me of it. But do I really need it with that wheat? If I removed it I'd likely just up the wheat malt to 20%.

I'm considering adding some Brett B towards the end of fermentation. When would be the best time to pitch this, especially considering that I'll be fermenting the beer at 90 degrees? I was thinking of transfering to secondary when the beer gets down to between 1.020 and 1.015, pitching the bret, and finishing fermentation at my usual closet temperature of about 71 degrees.

1. Mid to low single digit FG.

2. No need for carafoam.

3. Unless you are pitching a huge volume of brett--which you don't need to--I would just pitch brett at the same time as sacc. It has a slower growth curve so by the time it is ready to get fermenting sacc has already chewed up the simpler sugars and brett will be left to work on the dextrins and sacc fermentation byproducts.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 04:24:00 PM »
For those with 3724 experience, about what final gravity should I expect from this grain bill?
1. Mid to low single digit FG.

+1.   I've gotten 3724 as low as 1.002 in a grist with some sugar. But I've stopped adding sugar to saison altogether and can get it down to 1.004 (all malt).  Be prepared to ramp it up after a couple or three days, though - a couple degrees F/day up to 90F, hold until FG.

Jon H.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 04:36:18 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking about how to ramp the temp. My homemade temp control box uses Celsius, figure if I start at 72*F a degree Celsius a day gives me an 11-day ramp to 92*F.

Hoosier, what's your mash schedule like?

If I pitch the brett with the 3724, how will these temps affect it?
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 04:38:29 PM »
For those with 3724 experience, about what final gravity should I expect from this grain bill?
1. Mid to low single digit FG.

+1.   I've gotten 3724 as low as 1.002 in a grist with some sugar. But I've stopped adding sugar to saison altogether and can get it down to 1.004 (all malt).  Be prepared to ramp it up after a couple or three days, though - a couple degrees F/day up to 90F, hold until FG.

What are you temp are you pitching your yeast at with 3724?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2015, 04:41:34 PM »
Hoosier, what's your mash schedule like?

Just did one @ 147F/100 minutes.  I like the 147-148F range, for 90-100 minutes.
Jon H.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2015, 04:44:35 PM »
For those with 3724 experience, about what final gravity should I expect from this grain bill?
1. Mid to low single digit FG.

+1.   I've gotten 3724 as low as 1.002 in a grist with some sugar. But I've stopped adding sugar to saison altogether and can get it down to 1.004 (all malt).  Be prepared to ramp it up after a couple or three days, though - a couple degrees F/day up to 90F, hold until FG.

What are you temp are you pitching your yeast at with 3724?

I did the Drew Beechum method this time for the first time - pitch @ 65F, hold for 72 hrs, then ramp. BUT this is without the airlock, as 3724 is supposedly back pressure sensitive. Foil over the airlock hole. He says this helps the yeast be less prone to stalling. I'm curious to see how this works. Gonna kick on the ferm wrap today.
Jon H.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2015, 04:47:52 PM »
Yeah, sounds good.  Keep us posted about the stalling.  I have never had stalling really but have had longer primaries with this strain.  I have always pitched around 68F, then held there for 48 hrs before ramping up 4-5 degrees/day until I hit mid-high80's.  Have you ever tried the cooling to 80-90F method and pitching at those high temps with any success?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2015, 04:52:30 PM »
Yeah, sounds good.  Keep us posted about the stalling.  I have never had stalling really but have had longer primaries with this strain.  I have always pitched around 68F, then held there for 48 hrs before ramping up 4-5 degrees/day until I hit mid-high80's.  Have you ever tried the cooling to 80-90F method and pitching at those high temps with any success?

Yeah, I pitched one @ 90F and held there last year. Hit FG in like 9 days. Any other yeast would make a fuselly mess there, but it was surprisingly good. That strain is a different animal altogether.
Jon H.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 04:56:25 PM »
Why are you deviating from your last success?  Looking for a different profile?  Was it overly estery or phenolic when pitched that warm?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 04:59:58 PM »
Why are you deviating from your last success?  Looking for a different profile?  Was it overly estery or phenolic when pitched that warm?

Just like to experiment, to compare the profiles. It was fairly estery at the high temp, not as much as you'd think. I just love the strain and it seems to give different character at different temps (like most Belgians). Curious to see how well it attenuates doing this, too.
Jon H.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 05:40:41 PM »
It seems to be a pretty easy strain to experiment with, and since it likes warm temps you don't have to have a fridge to control the temps.

I know I plan on playing with this yeast a lot. I'd love to make an all pils saision, and try and derive any needed complexity from the yeast.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline narcout

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 07:15:12 PM »
Yeah, I pitched one @ 90F and held there last year. Hit FG in like 9 days. Any other yeast would make a fuselly mess there, but it was surprisingly good. That strain is a different animal altogether.

I also tried this last year.  The beer turned out quite well, though it still took 5 weeks to hit FG.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2015, 07:23:24 PM »
Yeah, I pitched one @ 90F and held there last year. Hit FG in like 9 days. Any other yeast would make a fuselly mess there, but it was surprisingly good. That strain is a different animal altogether.

I also tried this last year.  The beer turned out quite well, though it still took 5 weeks to hit FG.

Wow. I remember mashing that one @ 147F, too. Did you mash higher ? I'm surprised it took that long at 90.
Jon H.

Offline narcout

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Re: Saison 2.0
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2015, 07:29:38 PM »
Yeah, I pitched one @ 90F and held there last year. Hit FG in like 9 days. Any other yeast would make a fuselly mess there, but it was surprisingly good. That strain is a different animal altogether.

I also tried this last year.  The beer turned out quite well, though it still took 5 weeks to hit FG.

Wow. I remember mashing that one @ 147F, too. Did you mash higher ? I'm surprised it took that long at 90.

I mashed at 148 for 75 minutes.  I think it ended up finishing at 1.004 or 1.005; it just took awhile to get there.

It was a nice change from the 3711 (which I use a lot).  Next time I'm going to try pitching both strains.