Author Topic: Low Attenuation/High Floc?  (Read 2176 times)

Offline BrodyR

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Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« on: June 03, 2015, 12:26:28 AM »
Can anyone point me to an English yeast with low attenuation, high flocculation, that's relatively clean at colder fermentation temperatures?

I've used Ringwood and S-04 (whitbread?) so far. I was thinking about trying out WLP002 (Fullers?) - any thoughts?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 12:31:12 AM »
Can anyone point me to an English yeast with low attenuation, high flocculation, that's relatively clean at colder fermentation temperatures?

I've used Ringwood and S-04 (whitbread?) so far. I was thinking about trying out WLP002 (Fullers?) - any thoughts?

That's pretty much 1968/002 (Fuller's) to a T. It's a great strain. It ferments then drops like a stone, leaving a bright clear beer. It's fairly clean at low temps like 63-64 ish. Just be sure to ramp up temps at the end to help it finish up. You'll love it !
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Offline BrodyR

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 12:32:26 AM »
Can anyone point me to an English yeast with low attenuation, high flocculation, that's relatively clean at colder fermentation temperatures?

I've used Ringwood and S-04 (whitbread?) so far. I was thinking about trying out WLP002 (Fullers?) - any thoughts?

That's pretty much 1968/002 (Fuller's) to a T. It's a great strain. It ferments then drops like a stone, leaving a bright clear beer. it's fairly clean at low temps like 63-64 ish. Just be sure to ramp up temps at the end to help it finish up. You'll love it !

Awesome, thanks. London Ale III (Bodingtons I think?) was another thought. Any experience with that strain?

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 12:34:02 AM »
Can anyone point me to an English yeast with low attenuation, high flocculation, that's relatively clean at colder fermentation temperatures?

I've used Ringwood and S-04 (whitbread?) so far. I was thinking about trying out WLP002 (Fullers?) - any thoughts?

That's pretty much 1968/002 (Fuller's) to a T. It's a great strain. It ferments then drops like a stone, leaving a bright clear beer. it's fairly clean at low temps like 63-64 ish. Just be sure to ramp up temps at the end to help it finish up. You'll love it !

Awesome, thanks. London Ale III (Bodingtons I think?) was another thought. Any experience with that strain?

Yeah, it's a nice strain, finishes a little sweet. Fuller's strain is better IMO - most flocculent strain I've seen.
Jon H.

Offline BrodyR

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 12:34:36 AM »
Nice, I'll give it a shot. Thanks Jon

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 01:37:28 AM »
Windsor for sure is very fast and very flocculant.
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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 02:07:02 AM »
Can anyone point me to an English yeast with low attenuation, high flocculation, that's relatively clean at colder fermentation temperatures?

By flocculation, do you mean sediments really well?  Or do you mean the cells stick together like glue at the end of fermentation?  The former is sedimentation.  The latter is flocculation.    Flocculation is the tendency for individual yeast cells to aggregate into large masses of yeast cells at the end of fermentation.  It is usually controlled by an interaction between a lectin-like protein on the cell surface and the sugar mannose.  However, there is a phenomenon where two non-flocculent strains will flocculate each other when used as a mixed culture.  This phenomenon is known as mutual aggregation or co-flocculation.

While many highly flocculent yeast strains sediment well, not all do.  There are many highly flocculent top croppers that take forever to sediment. Conversely, there are strains that are non-flocculent that sediment nicely at the end of fermentation; however, the sediment is easily disturbed.  Windsor is a non-flocculent strain that sediments well enough.  It is also easily the least attentuative strain available to home brewers.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 03:01:03 PM by S. cerevisiae »

Offline BrodyR

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 01:58:35 PM »
Can anyone point me to an English yeast with low attenuation, high flocculation, that's relatively clean at colder fermentation temperatures?

By flocculation, do you mean sediments really well?  Or do you mean the cells stick together like glue at the end of fermentation?  The former is sedimentation.  The latter is flocculation.    Flocculation is the tendency for individual yeast cells to aggregate into large masses of yeast cells at the end of fermentation.  It is usually controlled by an interaction between a lectin-like protein on the cell surface and the sugar mannose.  However, there is a phenomenon where two non-flocculent strains will flocculate each other when used as a mixed culture.  This phenomenon is known as mutual aggregation or co-flocculation.

While many highly flocculent yeast strains sediment well, not all do.  The are many highly flocculent top croppers that take forever to sediment. Conversely, there are strains that are non-flocculent that sediment nicely at the end of fermentation; however, the sediment is easily disturbed.  Windsor is a non-flocculent strain that sediments well enough.  It is also easily the least attentuative strain available to home brewers.

Good question that lead me to look more into it. What I meant by floc is a yeast that clears well so it's clean tasting (as in not too yeasty & cloudy) without an extended cold crash. I understand that diacytel can be a problem in high floc strains but it sounds like letting the beer warm up to 70 or so, potentially rousing it, and leaving the brew on the yeast for a good 2 weeks should avoid this?

Basically I've been brewing session beers lately (saison that came in around 3% and an English Summer Ale at 3.4%) so I've been looking for a strain that will leave a little bit of body, clear decently well without filtration, have a hint of that Englishy yeast characteristic but still be clean enough when fermented cold to use in American hoppy styles.

002 sounded like it may fit the bill but I've also heard rumour that Hill Farmstead and Tired Hands use London Ale III and I love their hoppy pales so that crossed my mind as well.

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 03:41:57 PM »
I've been looking for a strain that will leave a little bit of body, clear decently well without filtration, have a hint of that Englishy yeast characteristic but still be clean enough when fermented cold to use in American hoppy styles.

1968 is one of the most flocculant strains in existence and is definitively English-y. I'm not a huge fan because at low temperatures it gets sluggish and can require rousing to get near the attenuation limit of the wort.

1318 is a true top-cropper and can actually be hard to repitch otherwise. It does clear very nicely provided you can rack the beer out from under the yeast "raft" without disturbing it. I've used it in hoppy American styles to good effect.

My personal recommendation for what you're describing would be 1272 (no surprise there).
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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 03:42:29 PM »
Good question that lead me to look more into it. What I meant by floc is a yeast that clears well so it's clean tasting (as in not too yeasty & cloudy) without an extended cold crash. I understand that diacytel can be a problem in high floc strains but it sounds like letting the beer warm up to 70 or so, potentially rousing it, and leaving the brew on the yeast for a good 2 weeks should avoid this?

High flocculation does not necessarily mean that a strain will leave residual diacetyl.  Whitbread "B" (Wyeast 1098, WLP007, and S-04) is a highly flocculent yeast strain that is also a clean fermenter.  What you want to avoid are highly flocculent single-strain cultures that flocculate early.  Many Yorkshire strains tend to flocculate early, which is why Yorkshire cultures like true Ringwood are rarely single-strain cultures.  Ringwood has a early flocculating, highly flocculent strain and a highly attenuative, far less flocculent strain. When used together, these strains create a flocculent, medium attentuation culture with a complex flavor profile.


Quote
Basically I've been brewing session beers lately (saison that came in around 3% and an English Summer Ale at 3.4%) so I've been looking for a strain that will leave a little bit of body, clear decently well without filtration, have a hint of that Englishy yeast characteristic but still be clean enough when fermented cold to use in American hoppy styles.

002 sounded like it may fit the bill but I've also heard rumour that Hill Farmstead and Tired Hands use London Ale III and I love their hoppy pales so that crossed my mind as well.

In my humble opinion, there is no one strain that does it all.   If you want to try a simple, but foolproof combination, try pitching Nottingham and Windsor together.  This combination should give you want on the British side of the equation.  Nottingham is flocculent and attenuative.  Windsor is maltotriose crippled and non-flocculent.  These strains work so well together that I often wonder if they were isolated from the same mixed culture.

On the American side of the equation, Siebel Bry 97 (a.k.a. Wyeast 1272, White Labs WLP051, and Lallemand BRY 97) is a highly flocculent, American-level clean, and malty strain.  Bry 97 is more than likely the old Ballantine Ale and IPA strain.  It is used by Anchor, Bear Republic, and several other breweries.  Bry 97 can be finicky on the first pitch, especially in dry form, which is why I recommend making a starter when using the dry offering.

Bry 97 is a true top-cropping strain that tends to form large flocs at the end of fermentation. Here's what one can expect floc-wise with Bry 97:



If you ever reach the "I culture my own yeast" stage, NCYC 1108 leaves a well-attentuated, but full-flavored beer (i.e., it's definitely not a neutral strain).  NCYC 1108 is what is known as a non-flocculent chain former (it's also the reference strain for type 1 mutual aggregation). Chain formation occurs when daughter cells fail to completely detach from their mother cells during budding (a.k.a. cellular mitosis).   NCYC 1108 forms chains that are large enough to make the sediment take on a gritty consistency.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 05:17:10 PM »
I'll give another vote to Windsor.  I will also second Mark's comment about Windsor/Nottingham working well together.

As far as 1968/002 being less attenuative, I know lots of people say it is but in my experience it attenuates quite well.  I wouldn't consider it as a low attenuator at all.

My recommendation would be to control the body/attenuation with your mash not with your yeast.  Yeast doesn't always do what you expect it to do.
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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 05:40:13 PM »
WLP037 makes Fullers look like a wit strain. It drops like concrete when it's done - I could turn my fermenter on its side and the cake didn't budge at all. It looks sort of like egg drop soup when it's fermenting, but with much bigger clumps. It has a distinct ester profile, but it's much less fruity than Fullers (pretty sure this is Samuel Smith's strain). It attenuates well if you pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well. And it can tolerate pretty low temps - I fermented it in the upper 50's/low 60's without a problem. I haven't used it in hoppy beers, but Sam Smiths brews some nice hoppy beers.

The only problem is that I think this is still only available seasonally in the winter from WL.

My recommendation would be to control the body/attenuation with your mash not with your yeast.  Yeast doesn't always do what you expect it to do.

+1 - Plus, if you want a style for hoppy American lagers you're better off with something that can finish dry if needed.
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Offline BrodyR

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 05:48:03 PM »
WLP037 makes Fullers look like a wit strain. It drops like concrete when it's done - I could turn my fermenter on its side and the cake didn't budge at all. It looks sort of like egg drop soup when it's fermenting, but with much bigger clumps. It has a distinct ester profile, but it's much less fruity than Fullers (pretty sure this is Samuel Smith's strain). It attenuates well if you pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well. And it can tolerate pretty low temps - I fermented it in the upper 50's/low 60's without a problem. I haven't used it in hoppy beers, but Sam Smiths brews some nice hoppy beers.

The only problem is that I think this is still only available seasonally in the winter from WL.

My recommendation would be to control the body/attenuation with your mash not with your yeast.  Yeast doesn't always do what you expect it to do.

+1 - Plus, if you want a style for hoppy American lagers you're better off with something that can finish dry if needed.

Yea, I'll mash a little higher too but given how low of an ABV I'm targeting just about everything should end up pretty dry if my OG is 1.030 or something.

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 06:46:21 PM »
pretty sure this is Samuel Smith's strain

WLP037 could also be a Black Sheep, Marston, or Theakston strain.  However, then again, it is an open secret that Chris White obtained many of his strains from other collections.  I believe that Dan McConnell (the guy who ran the Yeast Culture Kit Co. and Yeastlab) had the Samuel Smith culture in his collection, which is more than likely where Chris acquired it if WLP037 is truly Samuel Smith.  Dan McConnell and Maribeth Raines plated tons of samples that people brought back from the UK and Europe as well as from domestic sources in the nineties. 

We can personally thank Maribeth and Jeff Mellem for Fullers, Youngs, Denny's Favorite 50, and many other strains that we take for granted today.  Maribeth and the Falcon's  were true pioneers when it came to pushing the outside of the yeast envelope.

I recently acquired a new Yorkshire strain from the NCYC that I plan to study in the fall.  It is listed as being a flocculent strain that forms a good head.  Apparent attenuation comes out to be 75 to 80 percent, which if true, will make for an excellent ale strain.  I have reason to believe that the strain is from the John Smith Brewery, but I am not certain because it is an anonymized strain.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Low Attenuation/High Floc?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 11:23:00 PM »
pretty sure this is Samuel Smith's strain
I recently acquired a new Yorkshire strain from the NCYC that I plan to study in the fall.  It is listed as being a flocculent strain that forms a good head.  Apparent attenuation comes out to be 75 to 80 percent, which if true, will make for an excellent ale strain.  I have reason to believe that the strain is from the John Smith Brewery, but I am not certain because it is an anonymized strain.

Wow.  It does sound quite promising.  Please keep us posted with your observations.