Author Topic: I like the Brewing Network, but....  (Read 18550 times)

Offline denny

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 05:50:51 PM »

Contentious or not, I think this needs to be said.

Any, yes, why does Justin get to get up there and give a speech?

Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.
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Offline testingapril

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 05:52:26 PM »

The award is basically just "largest homebrew club" so if BN is discounted, why? They've done what they needed to become the largest club. Alternately, it's "club with an absurd number of NHC entries" and again, they've done a great job encouraging brewing competition and entering NHC, so why should they be discounted because they've been successful in that area. Congratulating that is a good thing, IMO.


Yeah, I guess that's what it has become, but it should NOT be that, in my opinion.

... beyond making dick jokes online


You may have a point here, because the rules of NHC entry have changed. Back when you could enter as many beers as you could get an entry for, a smaller club could out compete a larger club with quality. That is not the case anymore. With a 4 entry limit, I suspect a sheer number of entrants is the #1 factor for winning this award.

That said, a huge competition focused 'local' club could just become the new "unbeatable" BN for that award if they were discounted artificially. I don't know. I feel like overall, this is just a lot of complaining with little to no actual solution aside from the Gambrinus award, which already exists.

The dick jokes, misogyny, and general baseness is one of the reasons I don't list them as my club anymore.

...it allows folks that do not have access to a proper club claim a club.

As someone who's claimed BN as my club in numerous comps, this is important. I don't claim them as my club anymore, however.

Why is this important?  Claiming a club is not a requirement when entering competitions.

It gives a sense of teamwork, community, and being a part of something that folks out in rural areas (like myself) can't get as part of a proper club.

Offline Chino Brews

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 05:55:21 PM »
I understand what Steve, Denny, and others mean, but I'm not sure there is an easy answer to fix this.

The award has definitely been cheapened if the outcome is a foregone conclusion, especially when members of each physical club are working hard to have a good showing, and their efforts are swept away by a tide of entrants claiming an affiliation with hundreds of other people they have never met before.

Personally, I'd like to see the AHA require clubs to register with the AHA and pay a nominal per-member annual registration fee (something $5 per member, minimum $200). Only registered members of registered clubs would be able to claim affiliation for the club of the year, and others' claims would be deleted by the software. I think this puts everyone on an equal footing, and while $5 is not enough to pose a real barrier, I suspect it might make it harder for BN to collect and pay those nickels from as far and wide as their fans range.

That being said, I hesitate to recommend anything more radical that would shrink, rather than enlarge, our hobby. I would way rather see thousands of excited homebrewers brought/kept in the hobby by BN, even if it means BN wins the club comp every year, than say bye to those folks.

For example, I would like to be in a club -- and even have several clubs of national standing in my area -- but cannot due to other commitments. Having to ability to make some claim to a community helps, and I've claimed Chop N' Brew as my "club" in smaller comps in the past.
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Offline testingapril

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2015, 05:57:12 PM »
I'm sure this will be contentious, but I wanted to see how others felt about this before I send my thoughts to the AHA directly.

Also, I would have liked to see the "Final Round Club of the Year" (Gambrinus Club Award?) get equal airtime to talk on the mic at the banquet as the BN did.

Contentious or not, I think this needs to be said.

And, yes, why does Justin get to get up there and give a speech?

Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.

I didn't realize that airtime at the awards was not equal between the two awards. This is the proper corrective action IMO. Either both get a speech, or neither. Heck, if one should get a speech, it should be the Gambrinus winner because they are the higher quality club, IMO.

Quote
Either the BN is a club or a business and a sponsor.

I'm not sure I agree here. The BN club was initially opposed by Justin and the BN employees. It was registered only because a BN fan did so, and encouraged other BN fans to enter as BN club members.

TONS of homebrew clubs around the country are formed, hosted, and potentially ran by homebrew shops. Some even have the name of the shop in the title of the club. I don't see how this distinction can be made about the BN, but not HBS based clubs.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2015, 06:03:20 PM »
"I don't recognize your bulls*** club" Clay Morrow - President SAMCRO

Disclaimer: Im a Sergeant in the BN Army (only way I will ever get the title Sergeant is to pay for it). I have not yet placed in any competition. I have not been to NHC.  There are a couple tiny clubs, each an hour from my brewery, who do not meet on days that shift work schmucks like me can go to. In the brewing club world im considered unaffiliated. The BN Army allows me to feel patched in as a Nomad of the biggest club in the world.

The BN Army continuing to win the NHC COTY is amazing and Justin ought to be flush with pride. The booing I hear about, if any of it is serious, can't be directed at the BN. There's too few of them. If every BN crew member entered every comp and medaled monthly, it wouldnt be enough points to win. Maybe you think you are booing guys like us who claim BN as their club. But in reality you are booing yourself for not getting on the competition committee and change the rules. Or not having built a homebrew infotainment empire that out numbers the BN.

Final friendly reminder. They don't keep winning because they have 100,000 guys like me who can't even place in a competition. Its not about how many mediocre brewers you have. I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club. Suppose that someone did the study and found that the BN only had 100 brewers who won medals. Thats probably more likely that the notion that they have 50,000 who each won one third place medal. So, losers really dont matter when it comes to COTY, right? If thats so, what would it matter if the BN had a million members?

In my opinion a rules change will only create a whole new set of problems. If you "fix" the regional issue, you just eliminated everyone who doesn't live near a metropolis. (If the number of members issue is true)


Offline klickitat jim

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2015, 06:15:27 PM »
Lets explore the idea of requiring another AHA fee to be dubbed an official club member for COTY purposes. Maybe $5 isnt enough to eliminate enough BN medal winners. No doubt they have a few disposable bucks to throw at this. $50 buck probably wouldn't stop them either. $500 might. $5000 surely would. So what does that end up looking like? Congratulations! Of the 3 clubs who had wealthy members, your club won! Good job.

By the way, tonights meal was provided by COTY. Lol

Offline brulosopher

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2015, 06:15:52 PM »
I think it'd be rally funny if the CotY award was sponsored by The Brewing Network.

Offline theDarkSide

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2015, 06:19:37 PM »
The boo's were very evident over the livestream feed (which the BN provides).  Someone said there was a guy so upset, he boo'd very loudly and then stormed out of the banquet hall.  Geez...get a grip pal.

I guess the only solution is send your Governing Committee members you concerns, the AHA sends out a survey, and they change the rules and exclude these paying AHA members.  I wonder if the rosters of these other clubs would pass muster if audited under these new rules.  Not saying anything negative about them, but if a guy in Nebraska wants to join Quaff (hypothetical scenario) and pays his club dues, so be it.

I listed my club as the BN back in 2011 when I won a couple 1st round and final round medals, but since have changed since joining my local club (who will never get COTY since I'm the only one who ever enters). 
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Offline theDarkSide

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2015, 06:20:20 PM »
Lets explore the idea of requiring another AHA fee to be dubbed an official club member for COTY purposes. Maybe $5 isnt enough to eliminate enough BN medal winners. No doubt they have a few disposable bucks to throw at this. $50 buck probably wouldn't stop them either. $500 might. $5000 surely would. So what does that end up looking like? Congratulations! Of the 3 clubs who had wealthy members, your club won! Good job.

By the way, tonights meal was provided by COTY. Lol

Sort of like a poll tax...what a great idea. ;)
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Offline sfletty

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2015, 06:24:52 PM »

You may have a point here, because the rules of NHC entry have changed. Back when you could enter as many beers as you could get an entry for, a smaller club could out compete a larger club with quality. That is not the case anymore. With a 4 entry limit, I suspect a sheer number of entrants is the #1 factor for winning this award.

The dick jokes, misogyny, and general baseness is one of the reasons I don't list them as my club anymore.


Yeah, this is the problem. Under the no-limit, a smaller club like the St. Paul Homebrewers could brew and enter a crapload.

BN is not the same animal. They can field more people in more regions. It is NOT a level playing field. A regional club can't play the numbers game.


Offline sfletty

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2015, 06:30:40 PM »
"I don't recognize your bulls*** club" Clay Morrow - President SAMCRO

Disclaimer: Im a Sergeant in the BN Army (only way I will ever get the title Sergeant is to pay for it). I have not yet placed in any competition. I have not been to NHC.  There are a couple tiny clubs, each an hour from my brewery, who do not meet on days that shift work schmucks like me can go to. In the brewing club world im considered unaffiliated. The BN Army allows me to feel patched in as a Nomad of the biggest club in the world.

The BN Army continuing to win the NHC COTY is amazing and Justin ought to be flush with pride. The booing I hear about, if any of it is serious, can't be directed at the BN. There's too few of them. If every BN crew member entered every comp and medaled monthly, it wouldnt be enough points to win. Maybe you think you are booing guys like us who claim BN as their club. But in reality you are booing yourself for not getting on the competition committee and change the rules. Or not having built a homebrew infotainment empire that out numbers the BN.

Final friendly reminder. They don't keep winning because they have 100,000 guys like me who can't even place in a competition. Its not about how many mediocre brewers you have. I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club. Suppose that someone did the study and found that the BN only had 100 brewers who won medals. Thats probably more likely that the notion that they have 50,000 who each won one third place medal. So, losers really dont matter when it comes to COTY, right? If thats so, what would it matter if the BN had a million members?

In my opinion a rules change will only create a whole new set of problems. If you "fix" the regional issue, you just eliminated everyone who doesn't live near a metropolis. (If the number of members issue is true)

Dude, you don't get it.

The BN fields more entrants. They can enter and do enter in all regions all over the country.

No other club is a virtual club/business/sponsor/whatever-they-are. BN is not the same animal. No other club can play that game and win.

I'm not sure what the fix is, but it's a pretty obviously broken system right now.

Offline jvoeltz

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2015, 06:31:16 PM »
I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club.

Haven't looked up 2015 numbers yet, but in 2014 (by my calculations, using Gambrinus scores for my math), BN (or BNA, or whatever they are) had 348 first round entries. QUAFF had ~255 first round entries in 2014 (and lost to BNA for COTY by ~6 points).

BN only had two final round medals out of 348 first round entries.

There's a reason they finish first for COTY points and last for Gambrinus.....they're accumulating first round points because they enter a metric crap ton load of entries in the first round. It's purely a numbers game.

Myself, I take great pride that in 2014 I had more final round points than BNA, and that Schoppe did the same thing this year.  :)

So, who's gonna register ASH-QUAFF-ZEALOTS-ST.PAUL as a club for next year?  8)

Offline sfletty

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2015, 06:34:47 PM »
I'll bet the BN has the lowest ratio of medal winners to losers than any other club.

Haven't looked up 2015 numbers yet, but in 2014 (by my calculations, using Gambrinus scores for my math), BN (or BNA, or whatever they are) had 348 first round entries. QUAFF had ~255 first round entries in 2014 (and lost to BNA for COTY by ~6 points).

BN only had two final round medals out of 348 first round entries.

There's a reason they finish first for COTY points and last for Gambrinus.....they're accumulating first round points because they enter a metric crap ton load of entries in the first round. It's purely a numbers game.

Myself, I take great pride that in 2014 I had more final round points than BNA, and that Schoppe did the same thing this year.  :)

So, who's gonna register ASH-QUAFF-ZEALOTS-ST.PAUL as a club for next year?  8)

I'm in!  ;D

Maybe a club should only be allowed to enter it's home region.

Offline theDarkSide

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2015, 06:36:43 PM »
So, who's gonna register ASH-QUAFF-ZEALOTS-ST.PAUL as a club for next year?  8)

Eliminate the BN, and you might as well rename the award to this.

Congrats to you for your medals and Mark for Ninkasi!!


I'm in!  ;D

Maybe a club should only be allowed to enter it's home region.
In that case Quaff would have lost out on points too since they medaled in at least 6 regions in the first round.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 06:39:31 PM by theDarkSide »
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Offline Slowbrew

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2015, 06:45:31 PM »
I listen to this conversation every year lately.  Honestly I can see both sides of the argument ("is it really a club if no one in it ever gets together in one location" and "it's the only way many people will ever have access to a club").  Both perspectives have valid thoughts on the situation.

Full disclosure:  I am not a member of a club and never have been.  Not because there are no clubs available to me (I know of at least two in my area)  but because joining a club is just not my style.  People generally describe me as "doesn't play well with other" and I'm not bothered by that.   ::)

If a national club cannot be beaten due to shear numbers would it make sense to ask BN to split the national club into regional units?  Separate clubs but part of the same whole?  How many regional club divisions would it take to make it worth the member's time and everyone else happy?  Three?  Four?  Six?  Maybe divisions like: 

Northwest
Southwest
Rockies
Mid-west (Upper and lower?)
Northeast
Southeast

Just a thought experiment for me.  I'll never win a medal (I don't compete).  I'll never be in a club that gets "robbed year after year" by a national online club because I'm not a club joiner.  I don't have any skin in this game.  It just seems to me that getting upset (either side) isn't going to find a workable solution (and booing seems a little childish, sorry).

Other crazy "solutions" like this come to mind but regionalizing things is the most workable one. 

One dumb one:  The one big club could be split into subs by making each club have the same number of users based on the first letter each members last name.  When you join the national site you are assigned a "club" based on which one needs another person with a last name that starts with "D".  What ever works to create balance.

To me, it isn't helping to complain about it.  Look for a real solution.

Paul
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