Author Topic: I like the Brewing Network, but....  (Read 18540 times)

Offline jvoeltz

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2015, 08:08:14 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).

Offline chumley

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2015, 08:12:15 PM »
Some other homebrewer's internet club is making dick jokes?  Damn, I thought we brew rats had a corner on that.

Next thing you know, the BN will start taunting Dan Listermann....

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2015, 08:16:38 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Isnt that making my point though? If sheer number of entrants was what won it, how did they onl win by 6 points?

Offline jvoeltz

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2015, 08:21:28 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final  :)round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Isnt that making my point though? If sheer number of entrants was what won it, how did they onl win by 6 points?

The point is, if QUAFF and BN entered the same number of entries, QUAFF would beat them by a hundred points.  :)

Offline braufessor

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2015, 08:25:11 PM »
I have considered joining the BN as a club entry.... but haven't, because I do see the points people are making in regard to club of the year.  I live NO WHERE close to a competing club I could really be a part of.  I have been asked by a couple other midwest clubs about maybe entering in their club - people I communicate with on a regular basis with in regard to brewing.... but, likely would not be a "true" participating member.  I have not done that either - although I have considered it - again - because I would like to be part of a club that has a level of focus on competing.  But, as of now..... I just enter under my name, no club, and that seems to be my only real option.

The biggest club(s) will always win.  That is the way it goes. It is not "fair" that the BN has a huge base to draw from.  Of course..... is it really "fair" that people who live 200 miles from a metropolitan area are in clubs that could never possibly compete with massive population areas??  Probably not. 

I think Amanda's suggestion about somehow using a "club size" or "population center" measurement to make 3 "classes" of clubs based on size.

The other thing that could be done is to apply a formula like Midwest Homebrewer of the Year does - Your total entries are compared to your total times placing.  If you enter 100 beers and 50% of them place, your total points are multiplied by .5 for your final tally.  If you enter 100 and only place 15% of the time..... well, your total points are multiplied by .15 for your final tally.  This type of thing would eliminate the ability to win simply by having so many entries you can't lose.

Offline Kid Moxie

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2015, 08:36:33 PM »
Lots of good points folks are making on both sides of the coin. Folks feel frustrated that it seems impossible to compete with a virtual club that can enter many entries in every region and win the numbers game, but also you want everyone to feel like they can be part of a club. Now that each person can realistically only enter 4 entries there's no way a small, but motivated, club can even dream of competing.

Here's a simple solution: change or add an award to be per capita points. Then, for instance, if a club enters 1000 and gets 300 total points that's a lot different than a club that enters 250 beers and gets 100 points. It'll need a bit of work (for instance 2 person club gets 10 points, etc), but it's a way of normalizing the score.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2015, 08:38:48 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how many people wrote BN down as their club on their entry sheets? Does anyone know? If not then how can  sheer numbers be a valid argument? If the argument is that its unfair to have so many winners, well isnt that the point?

In 2014, BN had 348 entries in the first round. QUAFF has 255. With ~40% more first round entries, BN only beat QUAFF by 6 points.

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final  :)round / total entries in first round).


The danger in changing COTY to final round points only, is that more than likely the Ninkasi winner's club with always win COTY (not that it makes it a bad thing, just something to consider).
Isnt that making my point though? If sheer number of entrants was what won it, how did they onl win by 6 points?

The point is, if QUAFF and BN entered the same number of entries, QUAFF would beat them by a hundred points.  :)
If you statistically ration out the winners to losers you're right. But what if it was the BNs top 100 vs QUAFs top 100? How does that work out?

Offline Kid Moxie

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2015, 08:46:30 PM »
Lots of good points folks are making on both sides of the coin. Folks feel frustrated that it seems impossible to compete with a virtual club that can enter many entries in every region and win the numbers game, but also you want everyone to feel like they can be part of a club. Now that each person can realistically only enter 4 entries there's no way a small, but motivated, club can even dream of competing.

Here's a simple solution: change or add an award to be per capita points. Then, for instance, if a club enters 1000 and gets 300 total points that's a lot different than a club that enters 250 beers and gets 100 points. It'll need a bit of work (for instance 2 person club gets 10 points, etc), but it's a way of normalizing the score.

On second look, that appears to be pretty similar to how the Gambrinus award is calculated. It's curious to me why Gambrinus is essentially a footnote at the event while Club of the Year is in the spotlight.

Offline brulosopher

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2015, 08:49:03 PM »

It's curious to me why Gambrinus is essentially a footnote at the event while Club of the Year is in the spotlight.
Very curious.

Offline mchrispen

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2015, 08:50:53 PM »
Coming from a club that is notorious, but surprisingly small and very loosely organized, I really don't care about the BN domination. As mentioned earlier, take the BN out and another large club will dominate. That domination is the root of the desire to compete at the club level. Of course, we would love the recognition, but I would rather have the Gambrinous personally.

The offensive, sexist garbage  that makes up most of their adverts and some of the programs aside, the BN has done quite a bit to bring in and educate new brewers and get them involved. Heck, would the AHA be willing to give up the $$$ from entries and sponsorships from the BN and their members? Justin got an earful at the AHA Member meeting - I hope he really takes it to heart as well as the AHA leadership. You want diversity? Start treating every brewer with respect a person deserves.

The AHA is working hard to address the youngest brewer demographics. Limiting CoTa to a local/regional club and tossing out social/internet clubs will quickly leave those folk behind, and the AHA will start to shrink into obscurity.
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Offline Kid Moxie

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2015, 09:01:09 PM »
The AHA is working hard to address the youngest brewer demographics. Limiting CoTa to a local/regional club and tossing out social/internet clubs will quickly leave those folk behind, and the AHA will start to shrink into obscurity.

A good idea from Ray Found over on Reddit was to split up digital clubs and local clubs. If that's the future, why not embrace it?

Offline AmandaK

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2015, 09:04:15 PM »
Justin got an earful at the AHA Member meeting - I hope he really takes it to heart as well as the AHA leadership. You want diversity? Start treating every brewer with respect a person deserves.

Out of curiosity, what was said at the AHA Member meeting to Justin? I was out grabbing dinner somewhere much better than the hotel.  ;)

And April, here's a small portion of what I sent to someone on the AHA GC Comp Committee regarding the Gambrinus Award:
Quote from:  my emailz
Yes, there is the Gambrinus Award, which is basically a winning % game. However, if you think about that award in any detail your club either has to be extremely lucky to have only award winning brewers in your club entering NHC or you have to instruct the less-high-quality brewers to simply not enter the NHC for the sake of winning. And how crappy would that be? For a club like ours, we have many people who are consistent award winners and we also have many people who are just starting out. Could you imagine how poorly that would make some people feel if we were to actually try and make a run at the Gambrinus by way of telling some people not to enter?? That would be terrible.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 09:06:16 PM by AmandaK »
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Offline udubdawg

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2015, 09:12:25 PM »
I'm a member of the 1997 Club Of The Year.
it was accomplished with less than 20 members...times have sure changed, eh?!

2014 we finished 5th in COTY.  Only clubs ahead of us were national, giant, a collection of award-winning PNW brewers, and very large.  Only club to win 4 medals; only two others got 3.  Yet we were light years away from COTY points-wise.

So we had aimed for Gambrinus instead.  Finished close 2nd, way ahead of 3rd place, and would have won, if some brand-new brewers hadn't insisted on entering poor batches.  (Whatever; I can't exactly bar them from entering.)  Next year we'll try for Gambrinus again.

Club Of The Year?  Whatever - we don't have a chance, so we don't care. It's too bad, because the COTY award WAS one we were proud of.

My HOPE is that the other large clubs will dissolve into small ones, to try for Gambrinus.  I would argue that QUAFF coming close is actually dragging this out.  Once BN is winning COTY by a factor of 5 over every other club, it'll eventually go away.  Same goes for if BN no longer entered and QUAFF was dominating - that wouldn't have meaning either.

cheers--
--Michael

P.S. - I'm taking applications if any Midwest superclubs are forming and recruiting.    ;)

Offline mike89t

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2015, 09:14:50 PM »

It IS a numbers game. Especially looking at how BN finishes dead last in Gambrinus (total points in final round / total entries in first round).

If that is true it's very telling indeed.  Seems like it has become a bogus award.  Somethings got to change or drop it all together IMO.

I'm a big BN fan and learned a lot from their show.  Went to their party on Wednesday night and had a blast (Minus the bus delay  >:(  ).  It was very professional and well organized.  Great way to start off an awesome weekend.  Thanks to the BN for hosting that!

With that said NHC club night was AMAZING.  So many great Clubs out there that really put a lot into their booths and the beer that they were serving was fantastic.  I had heard club night was fun prior to attending NHC, but actually experiencing it really opened my eyes.  Kudos to all the great clubs out there that gave it their all!  You are the true winners in my book.

Offline toby

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Re: I like the Brewing Network, but....
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2015, 09:16:42 PM »
Out of curiosity, what was said at the AHA Member meeting to Justin? I was out grabbing dinner somewhere much better than the hotel.  ;)
When the topic of diversity came up, someone brought up a lot of things said in line for the BNA party that were even baser than dick jokes.