Author Topic: Comments and Suggestions for Gose  (Read 1502 times)

Offline johnnyb

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Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« on: June 28, 2015, 01:54:44 PM »
I've been working on this at the Northern Brewer forum but thought I would post it here for additional comments. Going to brew it later this week.

Here is where I'm at so far...


Gose

5.25 gallons, 1.044 SG, 3 SRM, 8 IBU


Grains:

60% malted wheat
40% pilsen

(Go with German malts?)


Souring with Lactic:

* Perform mash as normal to collect 6.25 gallons
* Heat to 170 degrees and hold for 10 minutes
* Cool to 85 degrees and transfer to carboy that's been purged with CO2
* Acidify with lactic acid to less than pH 4.5 to give lacto head start and protect head retention
* Pitch Omega lacto blend (from starter) and purge headspace of carboy with CO2
* Put carboy in water bath with circulating pump and aquarium heater set to ~ 90 degrees
* Give it 2 or 3 days until soured to my liking
* Transfer back to boil kettle and boil for 90 minutes
* Continue as normal
* Probably have to top it up a little bit with H2O post boil (Unless I can just boil for 60 minutes?)
* Finish with US-05?

Starter for Lacto blend

* Shake it and stir plate or just cover it and let it sit?
* Crash and decant or dump the whole thing in?


Hops & Spices:

Mount Hood @ 45 fOR 8 IBU

14 grams crushed Coriander @ 5
14 grams sea salt @ 5


Finishing Yeast:

US-05 (or maybe one of the altbier of kolsch yeasts?)

* Should I cold crash the yeast out and fine when it's done? Is it supposed to stay kind of cloudy? Does my choice of finishing yeast make a difference for this? 

Offline brewday

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 02:34:49 PM »
The Omega lacto blend only needs 1-2 days at room temp, no need to keep it that hot.  Make a 1L starter, no O2, no decant.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015, 02:52:39 PM »
I would hold the salt addition until final packaging. In addition, I wouldn't increase the sodium content any higher than about 250 ppm. That seems to be the 'sweet spot' for salt addition. I'm not going to evaluate your salt addition and the resulting sodium content, but do take the time to figure that out for yourself. 

Since finding out that styles like Berliner Weisse DO NOT use a majority of wheat in their grist (see Ron Pattinson's blog), I question the use of 60% wheat in this beer. I find that a high proportion of wheat makes these soured styles too bready tasting. I would reverse the percentages in this beer...40% wheat.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 02:56:16 PM »
US-05 will definitely work to make a fine gose, but I prefer WY 1007 (as I do for my Berliner styles as well).  It seems to ferment well in the presence of a low pH, is fairly neutral, and hell, its GERMAN!

Offline brewday

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015, 02:58:49 PM »
Since finding out that styles like Berliner Weisse DO NOT use a majority of wheat in their grist (see Ron Pattinson's blog), I question the use of 60% wheat in this beer. I find that a high proportion of wheat makes these soured styles too bready tasting. I would reverse the percentages in this beer...40% wheat.

+1

60/40 German Pils & Wheat for my Berliners.  I would probably do the same for Gose.

Edit:  Digging through the old (1977) World Guide to Beer, MJ specifies three parts barley malt to one part wheat for Berliners.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 03:05:21 PM by brewday »
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Offline johnnyb

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2015, 09:21:02 PM »
The Omega lacto blend only needs 1-2 days at room temp, no need to keep it that hot.  Make a 1L starter, no O2, no decant.

Awesome, thanks.

What I read was one of the 2 lactos in the blend does well at lower temps but maybe not both? I was going to try and keep it up a bit higher than room temp in order to get both strains to contribute. Mostly because some people report better results with the "handful of grain" method, and they suspect it's because a pure pitch doesn't offer as much complexity. I'm hoping with the blend it will have a bit more complexity.   

Offline johnnyb

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2015, 09:28:09 PM »
I would hold the salt addition until final packaging. In addition, I wouldn't increase the sodium content any higher than about 250 ppm. That seems to be the 'sweet spot' for salt addition. I'm not going to evaluate your salt addition and the resulting sodium content, but do take the time to figure that out for yourself. 

Since finding out that styles like Berliner Weisse DO NOT use a majority of wheat in their grist (see Ron Pattinson's blog), I question the use of 60% wheat in this beer. I find that a high proportion of wheat makes these soured styles too bready tasting. I would reverse the percentages in this beer...40% wheat.

Thanks!

Where I'm at now works out to about 270 ppm sodium. The funny thing is I thought I was starting on the far side of the low end of the range based on everything I read. I figured I would start low and adjust if necessary. I'll cut to 250 ppm and go from there.

Surprised about the pils/wheat ratio. "Brewing with Wheat" doesn't give a ratio for Gose, but contains several references (including some very old ones) for Berliner Weisse starting at 50:50 all the way to 80% wheat.

I will search for that blog you mentioned.


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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2015, 09:29:38 PM »
US-05 will definitely work to make a fine gose, but I prefer WY 1007 (as I do for my Berliner styles as well).  It seems to ferment well in the presence of a low pH, is fairly neutral, and hell, its GERMAN!

I love that yeast for my altbier so I think I'll use it. Thanks.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2015, 09:34:56 PM »
I've gotten to the point that I'm only using hops for dry hopping my sour beers. Some say try to keep the IBUs at 5 or less, and at that point I think "why bother at all?" Just a thought. If we are lowering hops that much because we want our lacto to kick butt, why use them at all? In a firmly soured beer I dont miss them. Then if you want some hop flavor/aroma just dry hop. Just an opinion.

Offline brewday

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2015, 10:00:10 PM »
The Omega lacto blend only needs 1-2 days at room temp, no need to keep it that hot.  Make a 1L starter, no O2, no decant.

Awesome, thanks.

What I read was one of the 2 lactos in the blend does well at lower temps but maybe not both? I was going to try and keep it up a bit higher than room temp in order to get both strains to contribute. Mostly because some people report better results with the "handful of grain" method, and they suspect it's because a pure pitch doesn't offer as much complexity. I'm hoping with the blend it will have a bit more complexity.   

Yes, Plantarum I think.  And it was isolated from a handful of grain, so there you go!  But seriously, I've only pitched pure cultures so I can't speak to the handful of grain method, but what I can say is that the Omega culture does more in a couple of days at 65° than what Wyeast 5335 does in a week at 90° - at least from a souring standpoint.  For complexity in my BWs I like to add some Brett L.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2015, 10:49:15 PM »
Your process is exactly the one one I use, can't speak of the lacto blend you're using as I use the 5335.  2-3 days at 90 is perfect.

+1 on WY1007, great yeast and tolerates the low pH and as for salt, I've used up to 22g and got comments of a bit too salty and 15g got perhaps a bit more salt......  I use sea salt and have found that 17-18g is pretty good in a 5 gallon batch. I add the salt at 10 minutes left in the boil.

As for the malt I'm at 60-40 malt to wheat and mash at 152, last batch scored a 40. I've got an entry coming in a couple weeks with another batch so my hopes are high again!
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2015, 10:59:11 PM »
I've gotten to the point that I'm only using hops for dry hopping my sour beers. Some say try to keep the IBUs at 5 or less, and at that point I think "why bother at all?" Just a thought. If we are lowering hops that much because we want our lacto to kick butt, why use them at all? In a firmly soured beer I dont miss them. Then if you want some hop flavor/aroma just dry hop. Just an opinion.

Interesting point Jim.  I know that for the last straight lambic I brewed, I did not add any hops whatsoever and that beer turned out fantastic picking up a medal as both a straight lambic (3rd) and as a raspberry lambic (1st) in the same competition this past spring.

 
As for the malt I'm at 60-40 malt to wheat and mash at 152, last batch scored a 40. I've got an entry coming in a couple weeks with another batch so my hopes are high again!

Wow, that is a great score for a traditional gose.  I have always struggled when entering those in comps as some judges just don't understand the style very well.  Hopefully the new 2015 guidelines will change that. 

Offline johnnyb

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2015, 11:15:33 PM »
I've gotten to the point that I'm only using hops for dry hopping my sour beers. Some say try to keep the IBUs at 5 or less, and at that point I think "why bother at all?" Just a thought. If we are lowering hops that much because we want our lacto to kick butt, why use them at all? In a firmly soured beer I dont miss them. Then if you want some hop flavor/aroma just dry hop. Just an opinion.


With the process I'm using, I don't need to worry about hops inhibiting the lacto since they won't be added until after the lacto has done it's thing.

I'm just using bittering hops to counter any residual sweetness. I expect it to finish around 1.008-ish so it probably needs just a touch.

Now for sours where the bugs are pitched during or after fermentation, those are going to finish extremely dry, correct? I can see foregoing even small bittering additions for that type of sour.

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2015, 11:20:09 PM »
Another funny thing about Gose is I've read information that these should have just a touch of a sour twang to them. And then I've read stuff that suggests they should be full bore sour like a Berliner.

I know the ones I've been able to try locally have not been mouth puckering sour like Berliner's are. But I do like really sour stuff!

What do you guys shoot for?

Offline johnnyb

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Re: Comments and Suggestions for Gose
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2015, 11:34:24 PM »
Your process is exactly the one one I use, can't speak of the lacto blend you're using as I use the 5335.  2-3 days at 90 is perfect.

+1 on WY1007, great yeast and tolerates the low pH and as for salt, I've used up to 22g and got comments of a bit too salty and 15g got perhaps a bit more salt......  I use sea salt and have found that 17-18g is pretty good in a 5 gallon batch. I add the salt at 10 minutes left in the boil.

As for the malt I'm at 60-40 malt to wheat and mash at 152, last batch scored a 40. I've got an entry coming in a couple weeks with another batch so my hopes are high again!

Thanks.

I read your Gose threads and then also got some feedback from porkchop on NB forums and read everything else I could find. Your process seemed repeatable plus the bugs will only be in one of my fermenters, which is appealing as I'm still nervous about taking my first step into sours.

Sounds like I'm close on the salt. The Gose's that I've enjoyed the most you could barely tell had salt in them. I've had a few that were really salty, but that's not what I'm going for.

For some reason, I'm not sure that coriander was detectable in any that I've tried. How much do you use and how detectable is it?