[brulosopher]

Sorry it took so long to reply, just finished brewing another xBmt beer.

Which color was the FWH?  I will admit to complete laziness for going the FWH route for pretty much all my beers.  I boil almost everything for 90 minutes (couple of my bigger beers get boiled longer), so a 60 minute addition is just one more potential thing to miss timing on, so I revamped all my recipes to FWH.  The difference in outcome is very subtle, IMO (although I fully admit it could be completely placebo effect), but I have one less timer to set.

Blue was the different beer and FWH; you chose green. I prefer the lazy route as well.

How'd I do?

I believe I picked the beer on the lower right as being different, but I can't remember what color square it was on.

You correctly chose blue.

12 out of 15 is pretty crazy though: p = 0.014. It makes me think there's actually a variation, just one that can't be detected by some subset of the population.

Super crazy! I'm not convinced it's not an anomaly, though, as this is the first time that's happened in over 40 xBmts. It'll be interesting to see what happens in subsequent versions of this one.

I'm interested in finding out my choice as well.
Jeff G.

You correctly selected the blue/FWH sample

12 out of 15 is pretty crazy though: p = 0.014. It makes me think there's actually a variation, just one that can't be detected by some subset of the population.

I still maintain there's a difference even though I can't consistently identify it.  I intend to repeat this experiment once the book is done and I have some time.

I so want to be a part of it!

I can't understand how FWH can have roughly the same IBUs as a 60 minute addition. I've always calculated IBUs for FWH as if they were a 20 minute addition, which I thought used to be the rule-of-thumb everyone followed. You would think those beers would be overpoweringly bitter, but they're not.

Jeez you take a two year break from brewing and it's surprising how many things change, or are at least disputed.

I purposefully matched IBU to test the smooth bitterness and aromatic quality hypotheses.

An additional conclusion I feel comfortable making: If the vast majority of people cannot discern a difference between FWH and a 60-minute boil, then the old 20-minute equivalency thing is bunk.

It's on the list!

I can't understand how FWH can have roughly the same IBUs as a 60 minute addition. I've always calculated IBUs for FWH as if they were a 20 minute addition, which I thought used to be the rule-of-thumb everyone followed. You would think those beers would be overpoweringly bitter, but they're not.

Jeez you take a two year break from brewing and it's surprising how many things change, or are at least disputed.

It's subjective.  when I had a FWH beer analyzed, it had about 10% more IBUs than a 60 min. only beer with the same amount of the same hops.  But to me, it tasted more like a 20 min. addition so that's what I call it.  http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf starting on pg. 29.

Subjective?! Pssh...

I wonder if adding hops to one batch to equalize theoretical IBU's was a good idea.  If you're trying to quantify the perception of bitterness/flavor/aroma and someone in the past has "figured" an equation to account for it, how did they figure it?  If it was a guess based on personal perception, then the experiment may have been more conclusive without the extra addition to one batch.  Or am I over thinking this?

I'm not sure if you're overthinking it or if I am under thinking it, which I'm certainly wont to do!

[johnnyb]

Thanks for all the comments re: calculating FWFs as 60 versus 20 minute additions. Clearly the evidence shows both the IBUs and the perception is closer/slightly over a 60 minute addition.

I'm still surprised that the several AIPAs and APAs that I brewed with FWFs calculated as 20 minute additions did not taste insanely bitter to me.

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for all the comments re: calculating FWFs as 60 versus 20 minute additions. Clearly the evidence shows both the IBUs and the perception is closer/slightly over a 60 minute addition.

I'm still surprised that the several AIPAs and APAs that I brewed with FWFs calculated as 20 minute additions did not taste insanely bitter to me.

The American craft beer drinker palate has largely grown immune to hop bitterness.  Now we jack up our perceptions of bitterness via salt additions (sulfate).

My opinion, calling it like I see it. 

[erockrph]

Thanks for all the comments re: calculating FWFs as 60 versus 20 minute additions. Clearly the evidence shows both the IBUs and the perception is closer/slightly over a 60 minute addition.

I'm still surprised that the several AIPAs and APAs that I brewed with FWFs calculated as 20 minute additions did not taste insanely bitter to me.

The American craft beer drinker palate has largely grown immune to hop bitterness.  Now we jack up our perceptions of bitterness via salt additions (sulfate).

My opinion, calling it like I see it. 

That, and I think a lot of IBU calculators overestimate utilization at the homebrew scale. By calculating FWH as a 20-minute addition you may just be compensating for this overestimate and ending up with the IBU level you had intended in the first place.

[ram5ey]

I love reading the exbeeriments, but I'm starting to feel that they all end with the same "there was no statistical significance/both beers tasted the same". 

[jeffy]

I'm wondering if a lack of sense of smell that day was an advantage for me with these two experiments or if I was just lucky.

[toby]

I purposefully matched IBU to test the smooth bitterness and aromatic quality hypotheses.

I would be curious to see the difference matching amounts and not theoretical IBUs, with the addition of using something a little more potent than Spalt.  IOW, if the harshness of the bitterness is going to be detectable or discernible, give it the potential to _really_ be harsh. 

[tommymorris]

I love reading the exbeeriments, but I'm starting to feel that they all end with the same "there was no statistical significance/both beers tasted the same".

Changing just one variable doesn't seem to make much difference. I guess you have to change multiple things to compound differences to notice. This should give us hope. It must take more than one mistake to make bad beer

[brulosopher]

I purposefully matched IBU to test the smooth bitterness and aromatic quality hypotheses.

I would be curious to see the difference matching amounts and not theoretical IBUs, with the addition of using something a little more potent than Spalt.  IOW, if the harshness of the bitterness is going to be detectable or discernible, give it the potential to _really_ be harsh. 

Definitely planned!

I love reading the exbeeriments, but I'm starting to feel that they all end with the same "there was no statistical significance/both beers tasted the same".

Changing just one variable doesn't seem to make much difference. I guess you have to change multiple things to compound differences to notice. This should give us hope. It must take more than one mistake to make bad beer

Multiple variable xBmts are coming

I'm wondering if a lack of sense of smell that day was an advantage for me with these two experiments or if I was just lucky.

You're just good!

[ram5ey]

Multiple variable xBmts are coming

Looking forward to it!

[denny]

I wonder if adding hops to one batch to equalize theoretical IBU's was a good idea.  If you're trying to quantify the perception of bitterness/flavor/aroma and someone in the past has "figured" an equation to account for it, how did they figure it?  If it was a guess based on personal perception, then the experiment may have been more conclusive without the extra addition to one batch.  Or am I over thinking this?

I'd say no, it wasn't a good idea and skewed the result.

[denny]

There is a contingent among home brewers who claim that first-wort hopping *tastes like* a 20-minute addition. I haven't seen any actual data to support that claim though.

Until someone figures out how to quantify something as subjective as taste, I don't see how it could be done.

[denny]

That, and I think a lot of IBU calculators overestimate utilization at the homebrew scale. By calculating FWH as a 20-minute addition you may just be compensating for this overestimate and ending up with the IBU level you had intended in the first place.

FWIW, the analysis of the beers I did was almost spot on with what was predicted by Promash.

[denny]

I purposefully matched IBU to test the smooth bitterness and aromatic quality hypotheses.

I would be curious to see the difference matching amounts and not theoretical IBUs, with the addition of using something a little more potent than Spalt.  IOW, if the harshness of the bitterness is going to be detectable or discernible, give it the potential to _really_ be harsh. 

I matched amounts.  here are the results from 2 different analyses....

Gas Chromatography by Scott Bruslind at
Analysis Laboratory
• Beer IBU
• A (FWH) 31
• B (60) 28.7

Here are the HPLC (High Pressure Liquid
Chromatogrpahy) results of the brews: The alpha-acids
are not bitter though they contribute to bitterness units
value. The humulinones are oxidized alpha-acids and
are slightly bitter.
• Beer Iso-alpha-acids Alpha-acids Humulinones
• A (FWH) 24.8 3.5 1.9
• B (60) 21.8 4.7 1.8

[a10t2]

Until someone figures out how to quantify something as subjective as taste, I don't see how it could be done.

That's exactly what these trials are doing, though. We'd just have to conduct another triangle test, but with FWH vs 20 min instead of 60 min additions.

Mind you, I'm not volunteering to do the work...