[bboy9000]

That's a nice bill for an APA.  I don't know that I'd ever do it but I do like a little caramel character in my APA.  So much so it may be "out of style."  On of my favorites it the Carinal Pale Ale from Nebraska Brewing Co.  If I remember the "Can You Brew It" correctly they use 15% caramel malt and 5% Munich for some caramel and bread character. I use 90% 2-Row and 10% C-60.  I've considered subbing half of the 2-row for Pilsener just to see if that adds more depth.

[Iliff Ave]

Your malt bill seems pretty weird for a APA. I would suggest an American Pale Ale malt or standard 2-row instead of the Pilsner. Then you can drop the Munich way down.

I have pretty much started using continental malts for all of my beer. I don't use two row any more. I prefer pilsner right now

[Iliff Ave]

That's a nice bill for an APA.  I don't know that I'd ever do it but I do like a little caramel character in my APA.  So much so it may be "out of style."  On of my favorites it the Carinal Pale Ale from Nebraska Brewing Co.  If I remember the "Can You Brew It" correctly they use 15% caramel malt and 5% Munich for some caramel and bread character. I use 90% 2-Row and 10% C-60.  I've considered subbing half of the 2-row for Pilsener just to see if that adds more depth.

I still haven't tried to understand the difference between caramel and crystal malts however caramunich is a crystal malt so I do have a bit of it in there although less than the first attempt.

[mabrungard]

Wow, I'm not surprised that there is a problem with hop perception with those grists. I went down that 'complex' malt bill path a decade ago and came to the conclusion that I was fighting with the hops.

Those bills are too malt focused to enable the hops to exhibit. I would knock the munich and crystal down appreciably to leave a malt flavor that is more 'singular '. 

[bboy9000]

Those bills are too malt focused to enable the hops to exhibit. I would knock the munich and crystal down appreciably to leave a malt flavor that is more 'singular '.

I would still keep my bill at least 85% base malt.  With some hop bursting I can get some caramel character with the hops in an APA. 

[Iliff Ave]

Wow, I'm not surprised that there is a problem with hop perception with those grists. I went down that 'complex' malt bill path a decade ago and came to the conclusion that I was fighting with the hops.

Those bills are too malt focused to enable the hops to exhibit. I would knock the munich and crystal down appreciably to leave a malt flavor that is more 'singular '.

I appreciate your feedback. I don't consider 2 base malts and 1 crystal malt to be a very complex malt bill. I prefer some malt character in my pales. If it was an IPA, that would probably be a different story...

[bboy9000]

I don't consider 2 base malts and 1 crystal malt to be a very complex malt bill.

I don't either, but it does add complexity flavor-wise which I like in a pale ale.

[HoosierBrew]

I like APA to have a tad more malt complexity, too. I still adjust the water chemistry to get a dry finish in APA. But AIPA is a different thing altogether - 2 row and a very small amount of C40 for me.

[Iliff Ave]

I like APA to have a tad more malt complexity, too. I still adjust the water chemistry to get a dry finish in APA. But AIPA is a different thing altogether - 2 row and a very small amount of C40 for me.

Yeah I rarely brew an IPA because I always want to complicate the malt bill and not use enough hops. Makes more sense for me to just buy those...

[mabrungard]

Well, while you are technically correct that Munich malt is a base malt, it produces an intensely malty flavor that I found to be overwhelming when competing with hops and bittering. The example of Dusseldorf Alt comes to mind. That is an intensely bittered ale, often with high malt character that is often derived from munich malt. Even Sticke versions that are dry hopped tend to have modest hop character that is still generally dominated by the malt flavor.   

Adequate sulfate in the brewing water does help dry the finish, but if you still don't produce the hop-centric flavor you want in that APA, I think you will find that backing off the munich and crystal is likely to help.

[Iliff Ave]

Well, while you are technically correct that Munich malt is a base malt, it produces an intensely malty flavor that I found to be overwhelming when competing with hops and bittering. The example of Dusseldorf Alt comes to mind. That is an intensely bittered ale, often with high malt character that is often derived from munich malt. Even Sticke versions that are dry hopped tend to have modest hop character that is still generally dominated by the malt flavor.   

Adequate sulfate in the brewing water does help dry the finish, but if you still don't produce the hop-centric flavor you want in that APA, I think you will find that backing off the munich and crystal is likely to help.

Point taken. Your Alt comparison is a good one as I can relate to it.

In my first attempt, the bitterness and hop character was there but not center stange. I don't want to say it was 'balanced' from a hops/malt perspective but maybe on the balanced end of the spectrum for what an APA should be. It was actually a delicious beer and maybe a good winter pale ale

[HoosierBrew]

FWIW, when I blend base malts for APA (which isn't every time), I've been using a small amount of MO lately, like ~ 15%. It's a small enough % to give some mild Victory or Biscuit character but not so much as to come off as a British style beer. And MO (to me) isn't as intensely malty as Munich.

[bboy9000]

Point taken. Your Alt comparison is a good one as I can relate to it.

I've never had authentic examples of Alt but I doubt the Germans are using Simcoe, Amarillo and Cascade.  Those varieties combined with late additions allow me to get hops character through even with the caramel character.

I agree with the approach on AIPA.  I use 90%  2-Row and 10% C-20.

[Iliff Ave]

Point taken. Your Alt comparison is a good one as I can relate to it.

I've never had authentic examples of Alt but I doubt the Germans are using Simcoe, Amarillo and Cascade.  Those varieties combined with late additions allow me to get hops character through even with the caramel character.

I agree with the approach on AIPA.  I use 90%  2-Row and 10% C-20.

Right. I think Martin was referring more to the balance between bitterness and malt character not the overall hop character. Maybe I am wrong. Fwiw, I only used the simcoe, Amarillo, and cascade because the other hops were so underwhelming...or that the malt character covered them. Using over 6 oz of hops for an apa is a lot for me though I realize it is maybe conservative for some...

[69franx]

I like APA to have a tad more malt complexity, too. I still adjust the water chemistry to get a dry finish in APA. But AIPA is a different thing altogether - 2 row and a very small amount of C40 for me.

Jon, where are you at with that very small amount? 3%-5%, or even lower, just thinking of switching up for my next IPA