Author Topic: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch  (Read 16577 times)

Offline narcout

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2015, 04:10:31 pm »
and your thoughts on fermentation with yeast in its healthiest/optimal state at lower volumes - for instance in this case one pure pitch pouch (all white labs says is at least 100B, so not sure how many) vs making a starter to get the target of 200B?

I don't use White Labs yeast very often, but isn't that the same cell count as the tubes (100 billion that is)?
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2015, 04:46:06 pm »

and your thoughts on fermentation with yeast in its healthiest/optimal state at lower volumes - for instance in this case one pure pitch pouch (all white labs says is at least 100B, so not sure how many) vs making a starter to get the target of 200B?

I don't use White Labs yeast very often, but isn't that the same cell count as the tubes (100 billion that is)?

Yeah that's my question. Pure pitch says "at least 100b". I'm curious what perhaps is their target- 125,150??? Mine was less than 2 weeks old when I used it.


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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2015, 06:19:29 pm »
My understanding is that they package a fixed volume, and that's why different strains will have different cell counts.

Curious- do you have the means to get a count on a pure pitch pouch?

Anyone with a cytometer should be able to. I'd volunteer, but I don't see myself buying new yeast any time soon.
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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2015, 05:23:43 am »
[
Yeah that's my question. Pure pitch says "at least 100b". I'm curious what perhaps is their target- 125,150??? Mine was less than 2 weeks old when I used it.

A quick and dirty way to estimate the number of cells in a liquid culture is to measure the volume of thick slurry in the culture.   A traditional brewery crop contains around 40% yeast solids.  At that percentage of yeast solids, 1ml of slurry contains approximately 1.2 billion cells.  White Labs slurry is pretty darn close to being pure yeast; therefore, 1ml contains approximately 100 / 40 * 1.2 = 3 billion cells.  If anyone ever wondered what the basis was for the 100 billion cell claim, well, a White Labs preform contains approximately 35 milliliters of thick slurry.   At 3 billion cells per milliliter, 35ml of pure yeast contains approximately 35 x 3,000,000,000 = 105 billion cells.  The keyword here is "approximately" because not all yeast strains have the same size cells.

Once again, cell health is more important than cell count unless we are talking about a cell count difference that is more than a few replication periods.  One hundred billion young viable cells that are reasonably healthy will make quick work of 19 liters (5 gallons) of normal gravity wort.  People have to remember that White Labs has always targeted the direct pitch crowd.  Pitching a White Labs culture into 1L or 10% w/v (1.040) wort does not increase the cell count as much as it allows the cells to come out of quiescence in a high cell count to wort volume environment. 

I know that a lot of brewers do not want to hear what I am about to say, but allowing a starter to ferment out, so that the supernatant can be decanted is not a good practice from a yeast health point of view because it places the culture back into a quiescent state.  A well known brewing book author has stated that one should allow a starter to ferment out because the cells are healthier due to increased glycogen and trehalose stores.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Yeast cells store these carbohydrates as the usable carbon (sugar is carbon bound to water) in the medium nears exhaustion much in the way that bears put on fat before the winter.  Yeast cells also undergo a morphological change where their cell walls thicken.  This combination results in cells that are denser than cells in an active fermentation.  Yeast cells then slow their metabolism and enter a state known as quiescence.  These changes are a survival mechanism.


What makes a yeast cell healthy is not glycogen or trehalose stores.  It's ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acids (UFA).  These compounds make the cell plasma membrane more pliable, which, in turn, makes it easier for cells to pass nutrients in and waste products out of the cell wall.  Plasma membrane pliability determines the quality of the ferment as well as alcohol and high osmotic pressure tolerance.  Alcohol and high osmotic pressure have almost the same effect on yeast cells because both conditions result in dehydration and the lost of something known as turgor pressure.  Turgor pressure is the cellular force that holds the plasma membrane against the cell wall. 

The moral of the story is that one should pitch at high krausen if possible.  High krausen marks the end of the exponential growth phase.  Beyond this point, all replication is for replacement only.  As the mother cells that were alive while O2 was still in solution share their ergosterol and UFA reserves with all of their daughters and their daughters share their ergosterol and UFA reserves with their daughters and so forth, we want to minimize unnecessary replication.  Replication beyond high krausen is unnecessary replication.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 01:28:26 pm by S. cerevisiae »

Offline Moseng

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2015, 06:16:12 am »

Is the yeast count in "pure pitch" larger than the one in White Lab vials?

Yes but that's just part it. Read this:





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It really did worked for me. I liked it and read the both papers. Thanks for sharing.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 06:23:24 am by Moseng »

Offline macbrews

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2015, 11:01:22 am »
The White Labs website says 2.5 Billion cells per ml.  http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/innovation

 Anyone know the volume of the package?

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maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2015, 11:50:19 am »
Today I'm Brewing another test with one pure pitch of wlp001 at 1.060. 1.050 batch last week has done very well, finishing 1.010 as targeted, and sample tastes great with no signs of any off tastes or smells.


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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2015, 12:00:31 pm »
The White Labs website says 2.5 Billion cells per ml.  http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/innovation

 Anyone know the volume of the package?


Per Mark, 35ml is the approximate volume.

So, I am starting to think that top cropping is worth considering for yeast harvest as opposed to slurry from a fermenter?  Especially if one does not use conical fermenters with dump valves....
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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2015, 02:35:37 pm »
The White Labs website says 2.5 Billion cells per ml.  http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/innovation

That figure is more than likely a conservative statistical mean that accounts for the difference in yeast cell size and varying amounts of non-yeast organic matter (the last thing that White Labs needs is some hot shot home brewer with a microscope and a hemocytometer posting that they are inflating their cell count numbers).

With that said, the difference between 2.5 and 3 billion cells per milliliter is in the noise due the nature of exponential growth.  As I have mentioned many times, yeast biomass grows at a rate of 2n, where n is the elapsed time since the culture left the lag phase divided by the length of the replication period.  The reason why the biomass grows at a rate of 2n is because yeast cells reproduce by budding, a process where a smaller daughter cell forms on the cell wall of its mother cell and then splits off. 

If we look at the problem from a growth point of view, we can see how insignificant a difference of 0.5 billion cells per milliliter is in the grand scheme of things.

number_of_replication_periods_necessary_to_reach_saturation = log( saturation_cell_count / pitched_cell_count) / log(2)

The maximum cell density (saturation) for 1mL of wort is approximately 200 million cells; therefore, the maximum cell density for 19 liters (5 gallons) of wort is 19,000 * 200,000,000 = 3.8 trillion cells. 

3.8 trillion cells = 3,800 billion cells

35 milliliters of slurry that contains 2.5 billion cells per milliliter has a total cell count of  35 * 2.5 = 87.5 billion cells

number_of_replication_periods_necessary_to_reach_saturation = log( 3,800 / 85.5) / log(2) = 5.44


35 milliliters of slurry that contains 3.0 billion cells per milliliter has a total cell count of  35 * 3 =  105 billion cells

number_of_replication_periods_necessary_to_reach_saturation = log( 3,800 / 105) / log(2) = 5.178


Increasing the pitched cell count to 200 billion cells

number_of_replication_periods_necessary_to_reach_saturation = log( 3,800 / 200) / log(2) = 4.25

Therein lies the reason why yeast cultures are like nuclear weapons in that one does not need to worry about being all that close to a calculated required cell count.  It's also why the results from yeast calculators should be taken with a grain of salt. 

Like all living organisms, no two yeast strains behave exactly the same under the same conditions. A strain will often behave differently in different brew houses.  The best way to discern the correct pitching rate for a given strain in one's brew house is to pitch, observe, perform a sensory evaluation, take good notes, and repeat the process with a different pitching rate until the desired result is produced.

On another note, I am curious to know if White Labs separates 100% of the non-yeast solid organic matter from the medium.  They definitely use an autoclaved growth medium.  From what I can ascertain, the medium used to be malt extract based. The 20bbl brewing kettle that they recently installed is capable of 15 PSI above normal atmospheric pressure operation, and it appears to be plumbed such that it can pump autoclaved wort directly into the propagation facility.


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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2015, 02:47:22 pm »
So, I am starting to think that top cropping is worth considering for yeast harvest as opposed to slurry from a fermenter?  Especially if one does not use conical fermenters with dump valves....

Top cropping will limit the number of strains that can be employed in your brewery.  Top cropping is best employed with true top cropping strains (i.e., strains that produce a thick, gooey yeast head).  Additionally, unless the cropped culture is fed, top-cropped yeast has a more limited shelf life than bottom-cropped yeast because it is taken from the fermentation before carbon becomes limiting (i.e., the cells have not undergone the changes necessary to survive without a readily available food source).  Top-cropping works best in breweries where the yeast is stored no more than a week without being repitched or at least fed.

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2015, 01:36:06 am »
So, I am starting to think that top cropping is worth considering for yeast harvest as opposed to slurry from a fermenter?  Especially if one does not use conical fermenters with dump valves....

Top cropping will limit the number of strains that can be employed in your brewery.  Top cropping is best employed with true top cropping strains (i.e., strains that produce a thick, gooey yeast head).  Additionally, unless the cropped culture is fed, top-cropped yeast has a more limited shelf life than bottom-cropped yeast because it is taken from the fermentation before carbon becomes limiting (i.e., the cells have not undergone the changes necessary to survive without a readily available food source).  Top-cropping works best in breweries where the yeast is stored no more than a week without being repitched or at least fed.
So as a side question, have you brewed and top cropped with WLP-022 Essex yet?

I got a fresh pitch from my Brewer friend Duncan, could not get to it to brew, so am feeding it. Has to be generation 90+. I will ask tomorrow when I see him.
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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2015, 01:44:13 pm »
So as a side question, have you brewed and top cropped with WLP-022 Essex yet?

I got a fresh pitch from my Brewer friend Duncan, could not get to it to brew, so am feeding it. Has to be generation 90+. I will ask tomorrow when I see him.

I just kegged a beer that I brewed with a preform of WLP-022 that I saved from being sent to yeast heaven.  I used closed fermentation.  I have tasted beers that that were made with this strain using open fermentation, and the difference is significant.  If I use it again, I will use open fermentation.  The strain produces a nice thick yeast head that takes forever to drop.

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2015, 01:50:18 pm »
So as a side question, have you brewed and top cropped with WLP-022 Essex yet?

I got a fresh pitch from my Brewer friend Duncan, could not get to it to brew, so am feeding it. Has to be generation 90+. I will ask tomorrow when I see him.

I just kegged a beer that I brewed with a preform of WLP-022 that I saved from being sent to yeast heaven.  I used closed fermentation.  I have tasted beers that that were made with this strain using open fermentation, and the difference is significant.  If I use it again, I will use open fermentation.  The strain produces a nice thick yeast head that takes forever to drop.
The brewpub that uses 022 open ferments most of their beer. Generally those are nice and fruity.

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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2015, 04:13:51 pm »
so the 1.060 brew with one pouch has demonstrated similar lag time and activity- nice 1.5 inch krausen and rolling hard at 66.5F.
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Re: maiden voyage white labs pure pitch
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2015, 04:35:40 pm »
The moral of the story is that one should pitch at high krausen if possible.  High krausen marks the end of the exponential growth phase.  Beyond this point, all replication is for replacement only.  As the mother cells that were alive while O2 was still in solution share their ergosterol and UFA reserves with all of their daughters and their daughters share their ergosterol and UFA reserves with their daughters and so forth, we want to minimize unnecessary replication.  Replication beyond high krausen is unnecessary replication.


From your earlier posts, high krausen could take anywhere from 5 to about 10 hours. Do you have your wort ready and then just wait to pitch until the starter is ready?

Now I know you don't think these two situations are ideal, but is one of the following two choices better than the other?

1) Crash at high krausen
2) Crash after yeast ferments out

I'm convinced you are correct with the methods you advocate for starters, but timing the starter to pitch at high krausen seems like it could be an issue if the timing of when it's ready can vary up to 5 or 6 hours.