Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Water for an Oktoberfest?  (Read 7625 times)

Offline johnnyb

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Pembroke, NH
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2015, 08:14:21 am »
Ratio schmatio.  I don't believe in the ratio thing at all, and here's why:

Calcium tastes like rock or chalk, slightly metallic.

Sulfate tastes bitter to nasty bitter, depending how much is used, and thus enhances hop bitterness.

Chloride tastes like salt and enhances malt flavor just like it enhances flavor in foods.

Pick the characteristics you want, and use it, regardless of ratios.  In other words, if you don't care about bitterness, it's fine to skip the sulfate altogether, and not adhere to some arbitrary 50/50 or 90/10 ratio or whatever.  If you want to enhance malt flavor, use chloride.  If you want to enhance bitterness, use some sulfate.  If you want both, use both.  If you don't care, then don't worry, you'll still make great beer.

In my opinion, chloride is great in every beer style.  Sulfate is a good option mainly in either hoppy styles, or where you purposely want to jack up the minerally character and thus are forced to use something with more calcium in it, maybe even a little magnesium but go easy on that one, it's pretty nasty metallic.

I suppose I should also mention, sulfate and chloride can't be added all by themselves.  They're always attached to either a calcium or magnesium or sodium.  So then you need to pick which one of those you want as well.  For brewing purposes, calcium works great because it lowers mash pH and has a fairly benign or even beneficial flavor characteristic.


How much calcium has to be in the water before you can actually taste it?

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2015, 08:14:41 am »
Jon H.

Offline wobdee

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 235
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2015, 08:19:27 am »
Ratio schmatio.  I don't believe in the ratio thing at all, and here's why:

Calcium tastes like rock or chalk, slightly metallic.

Sulfate tastes bitter to nasty bitter, depending how much is used, and thus enhances hop bitterness.

Chloride tastes like salt and enhances malt flavor just like it enhances flavor in foods.

Pick the characteristics you want, and use it, regardless of ratios.  In other words, if you don't care about bitterness, it's fine to skip the sulfate altogether, and not adhere to some arbitrary 50/50 or 90/10 ratio or whatever.  If you want to enhance malt flavor, use chloride.  If you want to enhance bitterness, use some sulfate.  If you want both, use both.  If you don't care, then don't worry, you'll still make great beer.

In my opinion, chloride is great in every beer style.  Sulfate is a good option mainly in either hoppy styles, or where you purposely want to jack up the minerally character and thus are forced to use something with more calcium in it, maybe even a little magnesium but go easy on that one, it's pretty nasty metallic.

I suppose I should also mention, sulfate and chloride can't be added all by themselves.  They're always attached to either a calcium or magnesium or sodium.  So then you need to pick which one of those you want as well.  For brewing purposes, calcium works great because it lowers mash pH and has a fairly benign or even beneficial flavor characteristic.
Good info, thanks!

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4723
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2015, 08:30:38 am »
How much calcium has to be in the water before you can actually taste it?

I'll leave that question for the experts.  I'll profess to have only an intermediate knowledge level of water chemistry.  If I had to guess.... I don't know.... 150-200 ppm?  I'm probably way off and/or don't know what the hell I'm talking about.  Please accept my opinions on salts with... grains of salt.  ;)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline beersk

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3721
  • In the night!
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2015, 06:43:19 am »
How much calcium has to be in the water before you can actually taste it?

I'll leave that question for the experts.  I'll profess to have only an intermediate knowledge level of water chemistry.  If I had to guess.... I don't know.... 150-200 ppm?  I'm probably way off and/or don't know what the hell I'm talking about.  Please accept my opinions on salts with... grains of salt.  ;)
I think it depends on the style, but you're close. I'd say probably 200-300ppm range.

On Denny's note about AJ, I think he just likes his beers malty and doesn't care to have sulfate in the water. I'm sure he doesn't ONLY brew light lagers.
I wouldn't put gypsum in water for Oktoberfest. Probably just calcium chloride. The finished water profile on the first page looks perfect.
Jesse

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2902
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2015, 07:00:44 am »
Oh come on, Dave. Calcium is virtually tasteless, not chalky or metallic. Sulfate is not bitter at all. It is very drying though. Chloride does not have a salty taste. Its only when combined with sodium that its salty and that is only at levels much higher than typically used in brewing.

At the levels we typically use in brewing, any of those ions are only adding nuances to the flavor and pushing our perceptions of other beer flavors in one way or another. Don't worry too much about a perfect level of any of those ions.

In the case of Munich water, the sulfate and chloride are both naturally low. Around 20 ppm sulfate and 10 ppm chloride in the tap water. Of course, the brewers are free to add minerals to their water and there is no telling what they may be doing for a O'fest. I don't think they are adding much of anything, maybe some CaCl2 and possibly a teeny bit of gypsum.

Since O'fest is a lager, you don't have to target 50 ppm calcium. Lower is probably better. Something like the Amber Malty profile that is diluted a bit, should be fine.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4723
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2015, 07:29:01 am »
Oh come on, Dave. Calcium is virtually tasteless, not chalky or metallic.

Here's that expert advice I had been alluding to previously!  :)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2015, 08:38:20 am »
How much calcium has to be in the water before you can actually taste it?

I'll leave that question for the experts.  I'll profess to have only an intermediate knowledge level of water chemistry.  If I had to guess.... I don't know.... 150-200 ppm?  I'm probably way off and/or don't know what the hell I'm talking about.  Please accept my opinions on salts with... grains of salt.  ;)
I think it depends on the style, but you're close. I'd say probably 200-300ppm range.

On Denny's note about AJ, I think he just likes his beers malty and doesn't care to have sulfate in the water. I'm sure he doesn't ONLY brew light lagers.
I wouldn't put gypsum in water for Oktoberfest. Probably just calcium chloride. The finished water profile on the first page looks perfect.

Yeah, as far as I know, that's all he brews.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline beersk

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3721
  • In the night!
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2015, 01:59:59 pm »
Well, that's interesting.

Martin, thanks for posting and clearing that up. Your water knowledge is always warranted. It's funny how Martin and AJ go back and forth on HomeBrewTalk whenever a water subject comes up. Two very knowledgeable guys on the subject, just differing views. Both are very informative.
Jesse

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2015, 02:21:55 pm »
This might be of interest. Na is what triggers "salty", this says it can also inhibit bitterness receptors. There is some good stuff here. I knew sweet would counter bitterness, but salt (Na ion) does too.

http://sciencefare.org/2013/07/10/why-does-salt-make-almost-everything-taste-better/

A study with interactions. Something to think about in our brewing. How to put it to use?

http://sciencefare.org/2013/02/27/the-importance-of-taste-suppression-and-a-special-personal-request/
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2015, 03:16:23 pm »
This might be of interest. Na is what triggers "salty", this says it can also inhibit bitterness receptors. There is some good stuff here. I knew sweet would counter bitterness, but salt (Na ion) does too.

http://sciencefare.org/2013/07/10/why-does-salt-make-almost-everything-taste-better/

A study with interactions. Something to think about in our brewing. How to put it to use?

http://sciencefare.org/2013/02/27/the-importance-of-taste-suppression-and-a-special-personal-request/

Jeff, I think this has been pretty well known for quite a while.  My Dad used to put salt in his beer to cut the bitterness.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2015, 03:36:24 pm »
This might be of interest. Na is what triggers "salty", this says it can also inhibit bitterness receptors. There is some good stuff here. I knew sweet would counter bitterness, but salt (Na ion) does too.

http://sciencefare.org/2013/07/10/why-does-salt-make-almost-everything-taste-better/

A study with interactions. Something to think about in our brewing. How to put it to use?

http://sciencefare.org/2013/02/27/the-importance-of-taste-suppression-and-a-special-personal-request/

Jeff, I think this has been pretty well known for quite a while.  My Dad used to put salt in his beer to cut the bitterness.
It was the first time I saw some science behind it. An uncle put salt in his beer too, it also knocks out some CO2 as nucleation sites.
Edited to correct the auto complete error.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 07:10:27 am by hopfenundmalz »
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2015, 09:31:02 am »
This might be of interest. Na is what triggers "salty", this says it can also inhibit bitterness receptors. There is some good stuff here. I knew sweet would counter bitterness, but salt (Na ion) does too.

http://sciencefare.org/2013/07/10/why-does-salt-make-almost-everything-taste-better/

A study with interactions. Something to think about in our brewing. How to put it to use?

http://sciencefare.org/2013/02/27/the-importance-of-taste-suppression-and-a-special-personal-request/

Jeff, I think this has been pretty well known for quite a while.  My Dad used to put salt in his beer to cut the bitterness.
It was the first time I saw some science behind it. An uncle put salt in his beer too, it also knocks out some CO2 as nuclear ion sites.

Yep, that, too!  I think I first read about the effect in McGee's book.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2015, 07:31:34 pm »
This might be of interest. Na is what triggers "salty", this says it can also inhibit bitterness receptors. There is some good stuff here. I knew sweet would counter bitterness, but salt (Na ion) does too.

http://sciencefare.org/2013/07/10/why-does-salt-make-almost-everything-taste-better/

A study with interactions. Something to think about in our brewing. How to put it to use?

http://sciencefare.org/2013/02/27/the-importance-of-taste-suppression-and-a-special-personal-request/

Jeff, I think this has been pretty well known for quite a while.  My Dad used to put salt in his beer to cut the bitterness.
It was the first time I saw some science behind it. An uncle put salt in his beer too, it also knocks out some CO2 as nuclear ion sites.

Yep, that, too!  I think I first read about the effect in McGee's book.
I read certain parts of  McGee's book. That was all encompassing, and more commitment than I had to give then.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

rabeb25

  • Guest
Re: Water for an Oktoberfest?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2015, 06:27:59 am »
For this years Ofest I used.

55ppm Calcium
45ppm Sulfate
65ppm Chloride

Last years I used about 70ppm Sulfate, and it accented the hops a little too much, so dialed it back a titch this year.