Author Topic: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?  (Read 2452 times)

Offline johnnyb

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WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« on: July 24, 2015, 03:10:58 PM »
I've avoided brewing a hefeweizen because almost all the domestics I've tasted seem to be banana bombs. My friends are big German hefe fans and I'm thinking of brewing one tomorrow. My LHBS only carries Wyeast and from what I've read 3068 is probably the best choice for a balanced hefe.

Any tips on avoiding a banana bomb if I use this yeast?

What I've dug up online so far is:

* Pitch a nice sized starter to accentuate the clove over banana
* Ferment cooler (right now the best I can easily maintain during fermentation is about 66o (beer temp)
* Possibly do a 20 minute rest at 111o then finish the mash at 152o. I'm not sure how to enter a multi-infusion mash into Bru'n water though and would rather stick with a single infusion unless it makes a big difference.


Also, should I just use German pils and German wheat (with maybe a touch of Caraffa II in the sparge for color) or should I use a bit of aromatic for body and color?

I'm looking for a nice balanced hefe with a giant creamy head and a cloudy appearance.

 

Offline beersk

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2015, 07:28:53 PM »
Ferment it cooler, 62-64. Banana is awesome in hefe! But a nice balance of banana and clove is definitely nice. Hacker-Pschorr hefeweiss is a nice one. My usual benchmark is Weihenstephaner, but that one leans more towards banana than clove.
Pretty sure mash profile has nothing to do with the ester profile you'll get from the yeast.

Depends how you like your hefes. You like them tart and crisp or round and soft? I prefer them to be round and soft, so I typically use a fair amount of chloride in my water and hardly any sulfate. Maybe 60-75ppm chloride.
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Offline Stevie

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2015, 07:37:29 PM »
If you can do a double batch, try half with 3068 and half with 2565. I do this once a year and ferment around 60. Idea came from st Arnold.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2015, 07:43:52 PM »
Also, I remember fermenting hefe (in the old days) in a plastic tote of water, swapping out frozen water bottles a couple times a day. I was able to hold 64-65F even in summertime. If you could even hold 65F doing this, I think you'll be pleased.
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Offline johnnyb

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 07:49:06 PM »
Ferment it cooler, 62-64. Banana is awesome in hefe! But a nice balance of banana and clove is definitely nice. Hacker-Pschorr hefeweiss is a nice one. My usual benchmark is Weihenstephaner, but that one leans more towards banana than clove.
Pretty sure mash profile has nothing to do with the ester profile you'll get from the yeast.

Depends how you like your hefes. You like them tart and crisp or round and soft? I prefer them to be round and soft, so I typically use a fair amount of chloride in my water and hardly any sulfate. Maybe 60-75ppm chloride.

I haven't found a true German hefeweizen that has too much banana for me. But most of the hefeweizens I've had in brewpubs or from American microbreweries have had too much banana for my taste.

As far as German versions: I like Paulaner and Franziskaner and Hacker-Pschorr (and others) but I think my favorite is Julious Echter. I'm not sure if that's considered soft or crisp?

Offline johnnyb

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2015, 07:53:52 PM »
Also, I remember fermenting hefe (in the old days) in a plastic tote of water, swapping out frozen water bottles a couple times a day. I was able to hold 64-65F even in summertime. If you could even hold 65F doing this, I think you'll be pleased.

Yes I'm doing the water batch with frozen bottles thing. I might be able to hold 64 or 65, but my last batch 66 (beer temp) was the best I could do. My basement is at it's seasonal high point at the moment. I suppose I could add the wet towel and fan to drop it a couple of more degrees.


Offline johnnyb

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2015, 07:56:18 PM »
If you can do a double batch, try half with 3068 and half with 2565. I do this once a year and ferment around 60. Idea came from st Arnold.

I could do 6 gallons to split into 5 gallon fermenters, but this keg is for a party and I would like to keep the hefe to 1 keg and serve some other styles. (So far I have an APA, Gose, and then this hefe. Last keg will likely be a saison.)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2015, 08:02:15 PM »
Also, I remember fermenting hefe (in the old days) in a plastic tote of water, swapping out frozen water bottles a couple times a day. I was able to hold 64-65F even in summertime. If you could even hold 65F doing this, I think you'll be pleased.

Yes I'm doing the water batch with frozen bottles thing. I might be able to hold 64 or 65, but my last batch 66 (beer temp) was the best I could do. My basement is at it's seasonal high point at the moment. I suppose I could add the wet towel and fan to drop it a couple of more degrees.



Yep, or add an extra frozen bottle twice a day ?
Jon H.

Offline johnnyb

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2015, 08:07:46 PM »
Also, I remember fermenting hefe (in the old days) in a plastic tote of water, swapping out frozen water bottles a couple times a day. I was able to hold 64-65F even in summertime. If you could even hold 65F doing this, I think you'll be pleased.

Yes I'm doing the water batch with frozen bottles thing. I might be able to hold 64 or 65, but my last batch 66 (beer temp) was the best I could do. My basement is at it's seasonal high point at the moment. I suppose I could add the wet towel and fan to drop it a couple of more degrees.



Yep, or add an extra frozen bottle twice a day ?

I've been swapping bottles every hour (sometimes using 2 bottles at a time) to keep my gose at 66 this week. (The first 3 days anyway. The fermentation has calmed down and I'm only swapping in bottles a couple of times a day now.)


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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2015, 08:38:31 PM »
* Pitch a nice sized starter to accentuate the clove over banana

I've had the opposite experience; under-pitching 3068 seems to keep the esters in check.
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Offline johnnyb

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 09:17:05 PM »
* Pitch a nice sized starter to accentuate the clove over banana

I've had the opposite experience; under-pitching 3068 seems to keep the esters in check.

Interesting. I found several sources that said some combination of under-pitch and under-oxygenate for more banana esters; over-pitch and provide oxygen to suppress banana/accentuate clove.


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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2015, 09:25:23 PM »
Pretty sure mash profile has nothing to do with the ester profile you'll get from the yeast.

I think the OP was referring to a ferulic acid rest, usually performed in the vicinity of 110 degrees, which supposedly results in increased clove flavors when the ferulic acid is converted to 4VG. 
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Offline johnnyb

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2015, 09:38:33 PM »
Pretty sure mash profile has nothing to do with the ester profile you'll get from the yeast.

I think the OP was referring to a ferulic acid rest, usually performed in the vicinity of 110 degrees, which supposedly results in increased clove flavors when the ferulic acid is converted to 4VG.

Yes, that's what I've read in a few places including "Brewing with Wheat."

I'm not sure how to handle Bru'n water if I try the ferulic acid rest. Do I go for the correct pH in the initial mash, then let it ride the rest of the way?

I'm using distilled water so that might work out ok. I suppose I could always check the pH after my second infusion (going from 110 to 152) and hit it with a bit of lactic acid if I need to bring it back down to 5.3 again.


Offline beersk

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2015, 01:06:46 PM »
Pretty sure mash profile has nothing to do with the ester profile you'll get from the yeast.

I think the OP was referring to a ferulic acid rest, usually performed in the vicinity of 110 degrees, which supposedly results in increased clove flavors when the ferulic acid is converted to 4VG. 
I doubt that's even worth it... kind of one of those things, like does decoction really add something or not? Personally, I've brewed great hefeweizens, with all the flavors that should be there, with a hochkurz step mash. I'm not even sure that really adds anything either.
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Offline pete b

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Re: WY 3068 and Avoiding Banana Bomb?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2015, 02:49:17 PM »
Pretty sure mash profile has nothing to do with the ester profile you'll get from the yeast.

I think the OP was referring to a ferulic acid rest, usually performed in the vicinity of 110 degrees, which supposedly results in increased clove flavors when the ferulic acid is converted to 4VG. 
I doubt that's even worth it... kind of one of those things, like does decoction really add something or not? Personally, I've brewed great hefeweizens, with all the flavors that should be there, with a hochkurz step mash. I'm not even sure that really adds anything either.
I did the rest at 111 the last time I did a hefe (and I used 3068 too). I fermented in the low 60's. I did get nice clove and very subdued banana which was what I was shooting for. I can't say for sure that the ferulic acid rest was a major contributor without doing a side by side but it was easy enough so I'll keep doing it.
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