[tesgüino]

...you need to boil with campden tablets at the very least prior to mash out...

I have been adding Campden to my brew water in the HLT prior to transferring to the MLT to remove chloramine. No boiling. Have I been doing it wrong?

[macbrews]

...you need to boil with campden tablets at the very least prior to mash out...

I have been adding Campden to my brew water in the HLT prior to transferring to the MLT to remove chloramine. No boiling. Have I been doing it wrong?

You don't need to boil water with Campden tablets to remove chloramines.  Just add it.  It works very quick.  Here is a link to a great source about it:  https://byo.com/hops/item/472-clearing-chloramine--historical-hopping-mr-wizard

[markpotts]

New brewers should concentrate on cleaning and sanitation, mastering yeast management, fermentation control on the way to make good beer. Water chemistry adjustments then can be applied to make excellent beer.

This is good advice, but it is not a mantra for all.
IMO; as a starting point, you have to have water that when mashed with the grist will give you an acceptable mash pH. The tinkering with the detail and fine tuning of mash pH comes a bit further down the line once more understanding is gained.
I am a lover of pale ales (both English and American)....when I started brewing all grain, for the first year or so I had to tip batch after batch and I could not understand why.
I used campden, used tried and tested recipes, my technique, yeast handling and sanitation were all sound.....yet I could not produce beer that was acceptable. In truth, I almost gave up.
It took me a long time to understand that my favoured grists and an alkalinity of 120-130ppm just don't work. Now, had I been brewing stouts my experience would have been a whole lot better.

What I'm saying is that there are certain combinations of water type and malt that will not turn out well. A new brewer should understand this and be aware that it might not be their technique or sanitation that is letting them down.

[mabrungard]

I used campden, used tried and tested recipes, my technique, yeast handling and sanitation were all sound.....yet I could not produce beer that was acceptable. In truth, I almost gave up.

That is one of the important messages I make in my recent presentation at NHC and in my upcoming article in Zymurgy (Nov-Dec 2015 issue). The mantra that: water is the LAST thing ANY brewer should take on, is just not correct. There are brewers that have water that may be poorly suited for a beer style they really want to brew and it can ultimately end in frustration and failure...and this is with perfecting all those other important techniques.

We need to stop perpetuating the myths about brewing water such as 'if the water tastes good, you can brew with it' and 'water is the last step to take in perfecting your brewing'.  There are brewers that can't wait to the last step. Their beers are so disappointing due to the damage their water inflicts and there are few process and technique improvements that they could take that can overcome that. These myths are probably cutting short the enjoyment of thousands of hobbyists who quit before they can produce good or great beer. For those of us that enjoy the occasional pint from a new brewery, only to find that their beer isn't that great. I have to wonder how many are fighting water conditions with no knowledge and no tools...since water is the last thing they should worry about...or worse yet, they think we worry too much about water.

Understanding your brewing water and having the knowledge and capability to make it better for your brewing IS an important factor in brewing. Water is NOT the last step. 

[69franx]

+1k

[Phil_M]

There are brewers that can't wait to the last step. Their beers are so disappointing due to the damage their water inflicts and there are few process and technique improvements that they could take that can overcome that. These myths are probably cutting short the enjoyment of thousands of hobbyists who quit before they can produce good or great beer.

This was my case. I still have yet to tackle fermentation temperature management. I'm sure it'll make a huge difference in my beers when I solve that issue, but water was critical for me. My tap water has <1 ppm calcium.

[hopfenundmalz]

My comment has more to do with risk vs reward. Poor cleaning and sanitation=dumped beer. Poor yeast management and fermentation control = nasty off flavor so, headaches, or dumped beer.

Some can get pH right with little effort with their water and what they are brewing. Going for a lighter/darker style and the may have problems. I was getting pH right and not having the flavor ions right way back when. Then I leaned more. You can make OK beer without too much water effort in some cases, but not all. Yes, you need water treatment knowledge and skills to get those 40+ beers most times.

There are pro Brewers that make beer without a pH meter and water treatment. I know some places!

We spent 4 nights up by Traverse City, and all of the local beers I tries had a chalky finish that did not play well with the beers, especially hoppy beers. The Brown ales at two wee pretty neutral from the chalky standpoint, as one might guess. The glass of water would taste chalky in those places, so I am certain it is the water. Martin could do a trip up there and pay for it consulting. All of the breweries were full, so the general public is not highly in tune with this defect.

[tesgüino]

The mantra that: water is the LAST thing ANY brewer should take on, is just not correct.

To play devil’s advocate, what is the last thing? Water may be a brewers problem, but if I was troubleshooting his beer, water would be the last item on a check list.
 
It would come after this; “I used campden, used tried and tested recipes, my technique, yeast handling and sanitation were all sound.....yet I could not produce beer that was acceptable.”

I think the important point is to not leave water off the check list.

[brewinhard]

[quote author=mabrungard link=topic=23884.msg307301#msg307301 date=143984176
It would come after this; “I used campden, used tried and tested recipes, my technique, yeast handling and sanitation were all sound.....yet I could not produce beer that was acceptable.”

I think the important point is to not leave water off the check list.

+1.  I would think that would be the pathway that most all-grain brewers follow.

There are pro Brewers that make beer without a pH meter and water treatment. I know some places!

 All of the breweries were full, so the general public is not highly in tune with this defect.

I have come across this so many times in new breweries opening up by me.  It's like they still follow the old mantra that acceptable public water makes good beer which is not always the case.

[hopfenundmalz]

New Brewers can get up to speed so much faster on all aspects of brewing today vs. when I started, especially on the water aspects in brewing. I hear there is a book and a spreadsheet that make it much easier. 

The pros that don't pay attention do bother me, as the beers I am paying money for should be better.

[brewinhard]

New Brewers can get up to speed so much faster on all aspects of brewing today vs. when I started, especially on the water aspects in brewing. I hear there is a book and a spreadsheet that make it much easier. 

The pros that don't pay attention do bother me, as the beers I am paying money for should be better.

+1.  I find that my home-brewed beers many times can be of higher quality than some local breweries offerings.  Yet they can charge $5/pint...

[toby]

To play devil’s advocate, what is the last thing?

For me, it would be brand of ingredients.

Water may be a brewers problem, but if I was troubleshooting his beer, water would be the last item on a check list.

It would come after this; “I used campden, used tried and tested recipes, my technique, yeast handling and sanitation were all sound.....yet I could not produce beer that was acceptable.”

Why would it be last (unless you had direct experience with his water)?  Why are you using campden without knowing what's in your water?  Tried and tested recipes are nice _if_ you're using the same water profile that they were tried and tested with.  What are you sanitizing with?  If you're adding sanitizers to your tap water, how is their efficacy being changed by it?

I think the important point is to not leave water off the check list.

I would argue that unless you're using RO water, having some sort of water analysis is where brewers should _start_ the check list, with the caveat of consulting experienced homebrewers drawing from the same water source being a decent substitute for an actual lab analysis.

[HoosierBrew]

New Brewers can get up to speed so much faster on all aspects of brewing today vs. when I started, especially on the water aspects in brewing. I hear there is a book and a spreadsheet that make it much easier. 

The pros that don't pay attention do bother me, as the beers I am paying money for should be better.

+1.  I find that my home-brewed beers many times can be of higher quality than some local breweries offerings.  Yet they can charge $5/pint...

+2

[johnnyb]

New Brewers can get up to speed so much faster on all aspects of brewing today vs. when I started, especially on the water aspects in brewing. I hear there is a book and a spreadsheet that make it much easier. 

The pros that don't pay attention do bother me, as the beers I am paying money for should be better.

+1.  I find that my home-brewed beers many times can be of higher quality than some local breweries offerings.  Yet they can charge $5/pint...

We have a lot of bad breweries in New Hampshire imo. It's sometimes surprising to actually get a good beer, especially if one is not fond of British styles.