[2brew559]

Hello every one and good morning West Coast Time   

I was wondering if anybody could help suggest or critique my recipe for a Robust porter 

Originally formulated 1 then I tweaked it and the scaled up to 6 gallons  hence the 2 recipes


Recipe #1 Robust Porter
Batch size: 5.5 fermenter
Efficiency: 80% BIAB used in my 10 gallon Igloo round cooler w/ 15 gallon pot for boil only I do not use bag in Boil and or pot
Style: Robust Porter
ABV: 5.34%
SRM Color: 22.83 SRM MOOREY (software approximates color, The color doesn't seem to hit all the SRM styles, but I know that what you see on computer screen is not exactly the color you get . Wort tends to be a shade or 2 darker in real life)
Bitterness: 27.65IBU

Fermentables:
Lbs/ oz Type percentages
base Malt: 8.5 lbs Pale 2 row 81.8%
Head retention: .31lb carapils 3.0%
Body+Sweet+head: .26lb American Crystal 40L 2.5%
Body+Sweet+head: .26lb American Crystal 80L 2.5%
Color+flavor: .42lb American chocolate 4.0%
Color+flavor: .52lb UK Brown 5.0%
Color: .125lb UK Black patent 1.2%

Hops: pellets/ single addition
Amount: 1.5 oz Williamte AA:5 - @ 60 min Boil

Mash thickness: 1.55qts
Temp: 154 F for 60 min mash in
mash out: 170 F
Yeast: Wyeast 1056 or Wlp001


Recipe #2 (slightly tweaked %'s and scaled up for 6 gallons instead of 5.5)
Style: Robust Porter   
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)   
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.045 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)   
Original Gravity: 1.057 Final Gravity: 1.014 ABV (standard): 5.56% IBU (tinseth): 27.26 SRM (morey): 24.68
Fermentables
Amount   Fermentable   PPG   °L   Bill %
8.75 lb   American - Pale 2-Row   37   1.8                            74.4%
0.35 lb   American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt)   33   1.8      3%
0.35 lb   American - Caramel / Crystal 40L   34   40              3%
0.35 lb   American - Caramel / Crystal 80L   33   80              3%
0.65 lb   American - Chocolate   29   350                              5.5%
1.18 lb   German - Munich Light   37   6                              10%
0.125 lb   United Kingdom - Black Patent   27   525              1.1%
11.76 lb   Total   
       
Hops
Amount   Variety   Type   AA   Use   Time   IBU
1.65 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5   Boil   60 min   27.26
Hops Summary
Amount   Variety   Type   AA
1.65 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5

Mash Guidelines
Amount   Description   Type   Temp   Time
4.56 gal   Mash In temp   Infusion   154 F   60 min
6.79 gal   Mash Out   Sparge   170 F   15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.55   qt/lb

Other Ingredients
Amount   Name   Type   Use   Time
1 tsp   Irish Moss   Fining   Boil   15 min

Yeast
Wyeast - American Ale 1056
Attenuation (avg):
75%   
Flocculation:
Med-Low
Optimum Temp:
60 - 72 °F   

Starter:
Yes
Fermentation Temp:
62   °F   
Pitch Rate:
0.35   (M cells / ml / ° P)
112 B cells required

fermentation Chamber: freezer and Johnson temp controller with sensor insulated against carboy

Well so let me know what you guys would change or keep and why...
Thanks everyone!!!

[dmtaylor]

Looks good.  One question: What's the Carapils in there for?  It's not doing much for you.  If you don't have good reason for it, toss it out.  Consider challenging the other crystal malts in the same manner.  Simplify where possible.  Nothing wrong with your recipe at all, but it could be simplified and get the same results.

Cheers.

[Iliff Ave]

Overall I think it looks pretty good. I would get rid of the carapils and just split the difference between the C40 and C80. I like the brown malt from the first recipe but I also like the munich malt in the second. You may want to consider an English yeast. Porters are personally hard for me because I tend to overcomplicate them...

[2brew559]

Thanks Guys...  You guys rock stars! 


Reasons for the mix of crystal 40+80
I was thinking that the 40 would give me some mellow caramel flavors while the 80 would add some fig raisin kinda flavor.
But I see your point simplify so I can tell what crystal does what... right?

Carapils +Crystal:  My question for you brewers 
If i'm understanding correctly recipe formulations and crystal malt usage ratios %[/b]
Don't want to go over 8% right, using crystal and or with carapils?
Recipe #1
I kept it at  5% 40+80 crystal with 3% carapils = 8%   (what do you guys use as a tolerance +-1%?)

Recipe #2
i used 3% 40  + 3% 80 and 3 % carapils = 9% total  ( 1% variance)

How does dark crystal usage affect your usage percentages of crystal malts ?

Why use the carapils with the crystal: 
I read somewhere that Carapils is like an insurance policy for Head Retention with out the flavoring that crystal malts give you. But to keep the carapils under 3% especially with Crystal malts or else you can get an overly thick cloying beer..

I see your point though drop the carapils and let the crystal give me the body, sweetness AND Head retention.

What do you guys think?? 



Brown malt in one recipe and Munich in the other:
Brown Malt for that tasty mellow chocolate flavor compliments the chocolate malt
Munich malt for that malty flavor especially since im using pale ale 2 row

Thanks again.. your information is awesome sorry about my grammar & english not so top notch.. LOL  My apologies

[morticaixavier]

Don't get too hung up on rules about percentages of this and that. Use as much or as little as you need to acheive your goal.

What didn't you like, or rather what did you want to change about the first batch?

I like munich and chocolate malt in my porter and skip the crystal for the most part. I count on mash temp and yeast selection to control attenuation/perceived body and mouthfeel.

[pete b]

This is personal preference but I have eliminated black malts from my porters. I get a more balanced roast that lets the malty sweetness shine. A great porter can be very simple.

[dmtaylor]

Don't want to go over 8% right, using crystal and or with carapils?

That's the first time I ever heard that.  There should be no such rule.  Or if anything, don't go more than like 20%, and 15% is kind of the high end.  But I've also tasted good beers before that used even more than those figures.  Depends on the yeast strain, mash temperature, beer style, and other factors.  Use what you think you'll like.  That's the rule to follow.

I read somewhere that Carapils is like an insurance policy for Head Retention with out the flavoring that crystal malts give you.

I don't doubt that every homebrewer has read that someplace.  Unfortunately, it's not true.  Carapils has it's own flavor, and might contribute body and some sweetness to the beer, but to use it for head retention is not really a good reason to use it.  If you don't want to increase body and sweetness with low impact to flavor, then don't use it.  Or just change your mash temperature.  But if you chewed on some and you really like the flavor, then go ahead and use it.

[denny]

This is personal preference but I have eliminated black malts from my porters. I get a more balanced roast that lets the malty sweetness shine. A great porter can be very simple.

And I've started adding them back in my porters becasue I was finding them smooth to the point of insipid without the black malt.  There are no rules.

[HoosierBrew]

And I've started adding them back in my porters becasue I was finding them smooth to the point of insipid without the black malt.  There are no rules.

I'm with you, Denny. I like a little black patent in most of mine.

[Iliff Ave]

I like some chocolate and a bit of carafa

[2brew559]

This is personal preference but I have eliminated black malts from my porters. I get a more balanced roast that lets the malty sweetness shine. A great porter can be very simple.

I included the black malt in these porter because I was finding them too smooth to the point of insipid without the black malt.  There are no rules.

I like that word "INSIPID"
Lacking flavor.
"mugs of insipid coffee"

I must agree with the Denny with a caveat  "Im new and still learning alot"

My info:
I got into brewing middle of 2014yr and made 2 Kit beers with DME turned out pretty good I think
Then I got full retard. Wow simple enough All grain here I come..LOL Big mistake!

I formulated a porter recipe rather than brewing a tried and true one because I thought I was PRO Brewer.. 
#1  and #2 porter batches  "self formulated recipes"
UK Maris Oter malt
German Munich
Crystal 60 + 80
Pale chocolate malt
German carafa 2
Water: No water modifications (i dont know how too to this day): I just used 50% RO water + 50 spring water form grocery store
Results: turned out too thick, too smooth and under attenuated and had a  sharp kinda bite to them like acidic ** I experimented and added a teaspoon of baking soda.. wow changed the bite to a smoother character.

My final last try at #3 porter recipe before posting here today and taking 6 month break
I dropped the pale choc, dropped the carafa 2 and lowered the crystal amounts, but kept the chocolate and added a 3 oz of black patent
results still not right,  under attenuated "wlp002"  but this did have a nice smooth roasty character that was lacking in the others 2 batches same yeasts by the way....


Posting these new recipe formulations has given me the confidence that Im on the right track because eof everyone here who has commented

Last question? truly how important is water additions to the results... I mean if I have a solid and right recipe and brew it correctly with good water vs same but with water additions, will the recipe with water modifications be that MUCH BETTER? all other things equal..

Thank you guys, keep the wisdom flowing?
 

[hopfenundmalz]

This is personal preference but I have eliminated black malts from my porters. I get a more balanced roast that lets the malty sweetness shine. A great porter can be very simple.

I included the black malt in these porter because I was finding them too smooth to the point of insipid without the black malt.  There are no rules.

I like that word "INSIPID"
Lacking flavor.
"mugs of insipid coffee"

I must agree with the Denny with a caveat  "Im new and still learning alot"

My info:
I got into brewing middle of 2014yr and made 2 Kit beers with DME turned out pretty good I think
Then I got full retard. Wow simple enough All grain here I come..LOL Big mistake!

I formulated a porter recipe rather than brewing a tried and true one because I thought I was PRO Brewer.. 
#1  and #2 porter batches  "self formulated recipes"
UK Maris Oter malt
German Munich
Crystal 60 + 80
Pale chocolate malt
German carafa 2
Water: No water modifications (i dont know how too to this day): I just used 50% RO water + 50 spring water form grocery store
Results: turned out too thick, too smooth and under attenuated and had a  sharp kinda bite to them like acidic ** I experimented and added a teaspoon of baking soda.. wow changed the bite to a smoother character.

My final last try at #3 porter recipe before posting here today and taking 6 month break
I dropped the pale choc, dropped the carafa 2 and lowered the crystal amounts, but kept the chocolate and added a 3 oz of black patent
results still not right,  under attenuated "wlp002"  but this did have a nice smooth roasty character that was lacking in the others 2 batches same yeasts by the way....


Posting these new recipe formulations has given me the confidence that Im on the right track because eof everyone here who has commented

Last question? truly how important is water additions to the results... I mean if I have a solid and right recipe and brew it correctly with good water vs same but with water additions, will the recipe with water modifications be that MUCH BETTER? all other things equal..

Thank you guys, keep the wisdom flowing?
 

Getting the mash pH correct is very important. Shoot for 5.5 to 5.6.

[pete b]

This is personal preference but I have eliminated black malts from my porters. I get a more balanced roast that lets the malty sweetness shine. A great porter can be very simple.

And I've started adding them back in my porters becasue I was finding them smooth to the point of insipid without the black malt.  There are no rules.

Yes, no rules, in fact I used to like black malt in porters, don't now, and probably will again. the beauty of homebrewing right there. Make it the way you like it.

[morticaixavier]

This is personal preference but I have eliminated black malts from my porters. I get a more balanced roast that lets the malty sweetness shine. A great porter can be very simple.

I included the black malt in these porter because I was finding them too smooth to the point of insipid without the black malt.  There are no rules.

I like that word "INSIPID"
Lacking flavor.
"mugs of insipid coffee"

I must agree with the Denny with a caveat  "Im new and still learning alot"

My info:
I got into brewing middle of 2014yr and made 2 Kit beers with DME turned out pretty good I think
Then I got full retard. Wow simple enough All grain here I come..LOL Big mistake!

I formulated a porter recipe rather than brewing a tried and true one because I thought I was PRO Brewer.. 
#1  and #2 porter batches  "self formulated recipes"
UK Maris Oter malt
German Munich
Crystal 60 + 80
Pale chocolate malt
German carafa 2
Water: No water modifications (i dont know how too to this day): I just used 50% RO water + 50 spring water form grocery store
Results: turned out too thick, too smooth and under attenuated and had a  sharp kinda bite to them like acidic ** I experimented and added a teaspoon of baking soda.. wow changed the bite to a smoother character.

My final last try at #3 porter recipe before posting here today and taking 6 month break
I dropped the pale choc, dropped the carafa 2 and lowered the crystal amounts, but kept the chocolate and added a 3 oz of black patent
results still not right,  under attenuated "wlp002"  but this did have a nice smooth roasty character that was lacking in the others 2 batches same yeasts by the way....


Posting these new recipe formulations has given me the confidence that Im on the right track because eof everyone here who has commented

Last question? truly how important is water additions to the results... I mean if I have a solid and right recipe and brew it correctly with good water vs same but with water additions, will the recipe with water modifications be that MUCH BETTER? all other things equal..

Thank you guys, keep the wisdom flowing?
 

you mentioned underattenuation a couple times. What are your yeast handling practices? underattenuation is usually due to poor yeast healther, low cell count, inadequate aeration. If the beer got really cold I suppose that could have stalled them out as well. I wouldn't mess with the recipe too much until you deal with the attenuation problem. Getting the water chemistry right will also help a lot. Check out bru'n water if you can. It's a spreadsheet that will help you decifer your water and how to manipulate it to get your desired results.

[2brew559]

"you mentioned underattenuation a couple times. What are your yeast handling practices? underattenuation is usually due to poor yeast healther, low cell count, inadequate aeration. If the beer got really cold I suppose that could have stalled them out as well. I wouldn't mess with the recipe too much until you deal with the attenuation problem. Getting the water chemistry right will also help a lot. Check out bru'n water if you can. It's a spreadsheet that will help you decifer your water and how to manipulate it to get your desired results."


What are your yeast handling practices?
Me: I think my yeast ferm. temp and starter1500ml.  ratio to the colder temp rangees I was using was too much for the yeast to overcome.

You: If the beer got really cold I suppose that could have stalled them out as well
Me: see above and I think that's what happ. especially with wlp002 and not using enough starter. especially with the colder temp ranges i used for that yeast.  I did it because I  mistakenly tried to avoid off flavors etc....  but Im learning how to do a proper ferm schedule now.... and create a proper starter

You: Getting the water chemistry right will also help a lot. Check out bru'n water if you can.
Me: Ill check it out the Brun water spread sheet
me: get ready for a barrage of questions..LOL on this subject because I literally now nothing on water modification.. I just drink it when its hot out side.. California + drought here..LOL


Note: In my humble opinion having a good amount of base malt is important  to the recipe results

When I started my adventure into All grain and mistakenly formulated a  "KITCHEN SINK RECIPE"
was probably most likely a great factor to the issues I mentioned and You mention


But that's how i learned i guess  my errors and  reading and asking question from you guy and girls

I want to thank everyone on here that helped  Thank you guys and girls     Like I said keep the Information flowing!