[Tofito]

Hi there! First post here to present you a recipe and have your comments before brewing it..

I want it to be a very malty/bready/biscuity backbone with a quite present fruity hops flavor, but not too bitter.
After building the recipe I saw the "Red Velvet" one (here: http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/RedVelvet) that is too big for what I want, but lets me think my recipe could work.
Oops, sorry for the metric values and EBC, it's because i'm frenchie...

Batch Size :
20,00 l
 
Ingredients :

Amount                 Name                                    Type          N°       %  Total    
1,70 kg               Malt Pâle, Maris Otter (5,9 EBC)         Grain         1        29,6 %        
1,70 kg               Malt Vienna (6,0 EBC)                    Grain         2        29,6 %        
1,00 kg               Pilsner (2 Rows) (4,0 EBC)               Grain         3        17,4 %        
0,40 kg               Rye Malt  (7,0 EBC)                      Grain         4        7,0 %         
0,25 kg               Carared (50,0 EBC)                       Grain         5        4,3 %         
0,25 kg               Crystal - 60L (118,2 EBC)                Grain         6        4,3 %         
0,25 kg               Flaked Rye (7,0 EBC)                     Grain         7        4,3 %         
0,15 kg               Malt Biscuit (45,3 EBC)                  Grain         8        2,6 %         
20,00 g               Triskel [2,60 %] - (First Wort)           Hops         9        6,7 IBUs      
7,00 g                Mosaïc [12,00 %] - (First Wort)           Hops         10       10,8 IBUs     
1,00 tsp              Irish Moss (Boil 12,0 mins)           Clarifier        11       -             
15,00 g               Cascade [5,50 %] - boil 12,0 min          Hops         12       3,9 IBUs      
15,00 g               Triskel [2,60 %] - boil 12,0 min          Hops         13       1,8 IBUs      
9,00 g                Mosaïc [12,00 %] - boil 12,0 min          Hops         14       5,1 IBUs      
10,00 g               Cascade [5,50 %] - boil 5,0 min           Hops         15       1,2 IBUs      
10,00 g               Mosaïc [12,00 %] - boil 5,0 min           Hops         16       2,7 IBUs      
10,00 g               Cascade [5,50 %] - flame off  0,0 min     Hops         17       0,0 IBUs      
10,00 g               Mosaïc [12,00 %] - flame off  0,0 min     Hops         18       0,0 IBUs      
10,00 g               Triskel [2,60 %] - flame off  0,0 min     Hops         19       0,0 IBUs      
1,0 pkg               American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272)       Yeast        20       -             
0,05 kg               Malt Chocolate [cold steep 12h]           Grain        21       0,9 %         
20,00 g               Triskel [2,60 %] - dry hopping 5,0 days   Hops         22       0,0 IBUs      
10,00 g               Cascade [5,50 %] - dry hopping 5,0 days   Hops         23       0,0 IBUs      

 
OG
1,063 SG
 
FG
1,015 SG
 
Color
26,0 EBC (= 13 SRM)
 
Bitterness
32,3 IBUs

Alcohol (%volume)
6,3 %

Boil:
60 Min

Notes:
Mashing: 60 min at 66,5°C (= 152°F)
             10 min at 75,6°C  (= 168°F)
For Rye malt and flakes:
- Beta-glucanes step: 40° for 20min (better lautering)
- Rise at 152°F then add to mash tun

2L starter. Ferment at 19°C (=66°F)

[curtism1234]

You have an awful lot going on there. I'd try to knock the grain down to 3-4 varieties instead of 8

I would remove the rye. It has too much spice in my opinion if you're looking for a more tame bready flavor.

Someone else can probably knock these down to more specific numbers, but maybe something in the neighborhood of
60% base malt
10% Cara Red
15% Vienna
15% Victory

[Tofito]

Yep I asume the grain bill is long... maybe too much... and make it look like a kitchen sink.

Thanks curtis for your advice.

- Marris Otter + Vienna for a mild maltiness and some base malt just for not to be too heavy.
35% Pilsner, 20% M.O, 20% Vienna looks better?
Maybe I should use or Marris Otter or Vienna... Both are seemlike to me, so i though using both of them would bring a bit more complexity, no?

- Rye for the spicy touch (flaked is a leftover i wanted to use).
Maybe 12% in total is too much for a small touch?

- Victory Malt is the same as Biscuit? Isn't 15% a lot for this speciality malt?

What do you think about the malty/hoppy balance??

[curtism1234]

You can do like up to 25% victory. It's not the same as biscuit malt.

Some people will split the base malts like you're suggesting; others would just use 1 base malt. The marris will give some of the flavors you're looking for. Personally, I'd probably be inclined to go with American 2 row and then work in some other malts.
It sounds like you're looking more towards an American style pale ale?

Hops wise, the French hop looks interesting. I kinda like your 3 choices.
As far as the hop schedule, I'll let someone else advise.

[HoosierBrew]

Personally, I'd never use 25% Victory. It's a good malt in moderation ( I like ~ 5%), but it's pretty assertive. In addition to the subtler biscuit character in MO, that character could get pretty overwhelming. Just my preference, though.

[Tofito]

Agree with you, so much victory would cover other subtler malty flavors, imoo. And moreover i don't have victory malt available where i am now..

Here are some changes for the grain bill (hopping unchanged):

Pilsner                         35%
Marris Otter                  20%
Vienna                         20%
Rye (malted and flaked)  9%
Carared                        5%
Crystal 60L                    5%
Biscuit                          5%
Chocolate (cold steep)     1%

Better?

[HoosierBrew]

It's just too busy a malt bill IMO. Too many malts in most beers gives a poorly defined, 'muddy' character. If I were brewing that, I'd go more like:  69% Pils, 20% Maris Otter (which has its own toasty/biscuity character), 5% Carared, 5% C60, 1% Chocolate malt.  Just my $0.02.

[Tofito]

Thank you for your valuable $0,02... 
So I'll be using Or vienna OR marris otter. For the first attemps of this recipe it will be M.O, and next time Vienna.

[jtoots]

It's just too busy a malt bill IMO. Too many malts in most beers gives a poorly defined, 'muddy' character. If I were brewing that, I'd go more like:  69% Pils, 20% Maris Otter (which has its own toasty/biscuity character), 5% Carared, 5% C60, 1% Chocolate malt.  Just my $0.02.

+1, I'd even go simpler than that!  After picking up "Brewing Classic Styles", I'm getting away from muddy malt bills and brewing better beer.

[reverseapachemaster]

It reads like a recipe that is trying to cover all its bases by adding every grain one might find in a red ale but when mixed together gets you a very muddy beer. IMO you are best off using pils as the main base malt paired with a good amount of MO or vienna plus victory (or a small amount of biscuit) but you don't need all three. Pale malt would work fine as the primary base malt but if you want to go that route I would use significantly less MO or vienna/victory.

The rye is fine if you want rye in the beer. If not, eliminate it.

The specialty malts are where you can make the beer your own. You need a small amount of something to add the red hue (roasted barley/chocolate malt/chocolate wheat/midnight wheat/carafa) and a little crystal malt (usually you use something light and something in the mid-range for caramel flavor but you can go with one). You're not going to unlock some undiscovered flavor profile by using lots of different grain. Figure out what you want this beer to taste like and start putting percentages together.

[Tofito]

I've followed your advices: no rye in this brew. Pils as a base with a big amount of M.Otter (no more vienna) but i keep some biscuit because I love its taste and I think it will combine well with M.O.

Pilsner                46%
Marris Otter         36%
Biscuit                 6%
Carared + C60      11%
Chocolate             1%

The aim of this beer is to have a deep complex bready/biscuity base. It will still be a to busy grain bill for some of you, but I consider it's equilibrated now.

Like many others i was adding too much different grains that would have interfered togother in place of marying together... a beginner's mistake.
Thank you guys!