Author Topic: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?  (Read 7369 times)

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2015, 02:57:03 pm »
How does this person on HBT know what level of dissolved oxygen they're getting in their wort?  Just because you're using pure O2 doesn't necessarily mean you're using it right, and even if you are how are you going to tell that you're at 14ppm and not 6ppm?  This guy could be running his O2 tank WOT and just blasting it through the wort without any benefit.  It's kind of like carpentry.  You can have the nicest set of tools in the world, but if you have no skill...

I use O2 because I bought the set-up and I like it.  My most recent batches I used the old aquarium pump.  In truth, I'm not sure I really notice a difference but on larger beers I go with the O2 just because.

I do not have a flow meter.  I have no idea what level of dissolved O2 I'm achieving.  I could probably do just as well with a mix-stir, but I don't own one.  My beer comes out quite well, though I am not always 100% pleased with it.  However, my issues don't have anything to do with how the wort is oxygenated.

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Derek

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2015, 03:01:49 pm »
How does this person on HBT know what level of dissolved oxygen they're getting in their wort? 

Evidently he read 7 or so pages from "Yeast" and "general consensus" of the "entire" homebrewing and commercial brewing community said so.

That was my take at least.

Derek

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2015, 03:03:39 pm »
How does this person on HBT know what level of dissolved oxygen they're getting in their wort? 

We never got around to that.

Evidently he read 7 or so pages from "Yeast" and "general consensus" of the "entire" homebrewing and commercial brewing community said so.

That was my take at least.

Offline beersk

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2015, 03:28:42 pm »
One of the things i gripe to my wife about all the time is that the internet is the best thing and the worst thing at the same time. Too much information can be a bad thing after a certain point in the hands of the wrong people.

This lends itself to many hobbies. I used to frequent some of the guitar tube amp forums and many of the same problems plagued them as well. Given access to so many opinions and such a multitude of information, people are bound to have many different opinions on many subjects with various levels of merit attached to them. Some opinions are heavily steeped in confirmation bias and some are groomed through experience.

I find the former frustrating and latter enlightening.
Well, in playing an instrument, technique is paramount if you want to excel. Equipment is only a medium to getting the sounds you want. As a drummer, having a really good set of drums and cymbals helps me to achieve the sounds I want. Practice a sh!t ton got me to the point of using those sounds to my benefit. A good musician can make a sh!tty set up sound good, but only to a point.

So, I'm not sure how this relates to the current topic, but you're using music analogy so I thought I'd add to it. Maybe aeration with a stone and pure o2 vs a mix stir is like having a 2 bass drum setup vs a double pedal setup. One is simpler, more compact and less expensive. The other is more powerful, more to haul, more to keep in tune (unless triggers are being used). Two separate pedals are more efficient than a double pedal with an axle shaft for the slave pedal. But the double pedal is good enough for almost all applications, especially with modern technology.

Got a bit off topic there... maybe it's just all what you're willing to put up with. Plenty of drummers use 2 bass drums, plenty use 1 with a double pedal and are just as fast... I'm an extreme metal drummer, that's why I'm using speed as an indicator of the equipment quality. It's pretty tough to play fast on really crappy pedals.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 03:36:03 pm by beersk »
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2015, 03:51:10 pm »
How does this person on HBT know what level of dissolved oxygen they're getting in their wort?

This. Oxygenating without a DO meter is just guesswork. With aeration, you can at least say with some confidence that you're getting close to saturation levels - which are ~9 ppm at 18°C/64°F and ~12 ppm at 8°C/46°F. So the guy arguing didn't even do his math right.
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Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2015, 04:15:18 pm »
I'm involved in a conversation over at HBT about the superiority of Pure O2 injection as opposed to Manual (MixStir/Shaking/Air Pump) Aeration and the ultimate flavor impacts on the final product.

Anyone else making fantastic beer without the use of Pure O2? If so, how are your higher gravity beers coming out in the absence of Pure O2?

Of course.  It works so well I gave away my O2 setup.
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Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2015, 04:16:41 pm »
I think people let the gizmos and whirly gigs trick their brains into noticing flavor differences.

MixStir: good enough for you guys, good enough for me.

I may bump up to 2 gallon batches, grab a 3 gallon carboy and buy a MixStir.

IMO, HBT is a cesspool of misinformation.  Ask those people if they've done a blind triangle tasting of the various aeration methods.  I bet I know the answer....
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Offline narcout

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2015, 04:18:06 pm »
I use O2 because I bought the set-up and I like it.

That's pretty much where I'm at.  I bought an O2 set up 7 or 8 years ago and have been happy with it (prior to that purchase, I did not aerate my wort at all).

I have the one where the stone is attached to a stainless steel wand, and it's really easy to use.  All you have to do is sanitize the wand and bubble O2 through the wort for a minute. 

The thing that concerns me about the mix-stir is whipping pet dander into my wort (we have a cat and a dog, and they both shed a lot).
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Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2015, 04:18:16 pm »
I have never, in over 500 batches, used pure O2. I'm not convinced it's at all necessary on the homebrew scale, even for big beers. My hunch is that confirmation bias contributes to much of the belief pure O2 improved one's beer. Again, just a hunch.

As is true of so much in homebrewing.
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Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2015, 04:20:09 pm »

I think the true folly here is entering into an argument on HBT. There is a reason why many of us choose this forum as our home base. The attitude is much different 'round these parts.

You put it much more diplomatically than I did.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2015, 05:05:01 pm »
How does this person on HBT know what level of dissolved oxygen they're getting in their wort?

This. Oxygenating without a DO meter is just guesswork. With aeration, you can at least say with some confidence that you're getting close to saturation levels - which are ~9 ppm at 18°C/64°F and ~12 ppm at 8°C/46°F. So the guy arguing didn't even do his math right.
Agree, 100%. Using a wand pretty much takes the guess work out of it. Whether it makes a difference to the finished beer or not is the real argument here. It probably doesn't, but I'm not going to quit using mine. Same as the dry yeast debate - rehydrate or pitch dry. Do what you do, I'll do what I do.
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Derek

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2015, 06:19:12 pm »
I think people let the gizmos and whirly gigs trick their brains into noticing flavor differences.

MixStir: good enough for you guys, good enough for me.

I may bump up to 2 gallon batches, grab a 3 gallon carboy and buy a MixStir.

IMO, HBT is a cesspool of misinformation.  Ask those people if they've done a blind triangle tasting of the various aeration methods.  I bet I know the answer....

He asked if I had personally brewed a split batch or 2 identical batches with the two different methods and tasted the difference. I of course said no but informed him I had known and tried beers brewed with both, etc.

To which of course I was told that I basically had no frame of reference and that I needed to read all the science behind it and read "Yeast" and if all the breweries in the world are doing it why was I ignorant of the fact that better beer can't be made without Pure O2......

You know the drill. Basically the OP had asked for some advice and about 10 really nice and helpful comments were left and invariably someone had to say, "... If you don't do it this way your beer will suck..." Which is something that seems unnecessary to me.

Judging by the comments here, I plan to keep shaking my 1 gal jugs until I move to a 3 gal carboy and get a MixStir. Thanks everyone!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 06:28:52 pm by Derek »

Offline a10t2

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2015, 06:24:11 pm »
FWIW, plenty of breweries use compressed air.
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Offline toby

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2015, 06:25:10 pm »
I'm involved in a conversation over at HBT about the superiority of Pure O2 injection as opposed to Manual (MixStir/Shaking/Air Pump) Aeration and the ultimate flavor impacts on the final product.

Anyone else making fantastic beer without the use of Pure O2? If so, how are your higher gravity beers coming out in the absence of Pure O2?
Don't know if it counts, but my NHC Finals entry/MCAB bronze winner was a non-O2-injected 'shaken' batch.  It would have probably performed better only if it were a few months younger (I find it hits its peak at between 6-9 months and it was at ~15 for Finals and MCAB).  It's a Scotch ale, so it's a big beer (1.105 OG).  I may go over and find that thread later.  lol

Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2015, 06:45:17 pm »
FWIW, plenty of breweries use compressed air.

Not to mention that we're HOMEbrewers.  We have different needs, goals, and scale than commercial brewers.
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