[Derek]

Ok gang, here is another gem that I participated in at HBT.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=538933

I had real trouble with this guy. He didn't seem to get it.

Actually I had fun with this guy.

[Stevie]

In my experiences, HBT can be a good resource, but one must filter through the static. I don't participate on that forum, but have read through plenty of flame wars and trolling threads. This forum, to me, offers a higher quality experience due to the lack of static.

Not about HBT specifically, but my favorite is when brewers, pro and home, are super proud of keeping their beers Reinheitsgebot. Lah-dee-flippin-da

[klickitat jim]

It takes time to find home base. Im 99% AHA forum, the rest is BN.

Im still learning. Hope I never stop. Of the few forums ive tried, this is the most real. Meaning there is relatively limited "internet-boldness".  People tend to be who they are, and pretty much post as they would if this was face to face. I've found that there are a lot of good sources of info out there, but you have to filter things to what works for you. Frankly, question authority. Just because a guy had a winning streak by submitting more beer than you can legally brew, including blended concoctions that best fit guidelines, doesn't equate to master of all things brewing knowledge for MY system - MY methods, - MY tastes. Famous yes. A kick ass brewer yes. Knowledgeable yes. But I am hesitant to make one guy the benchmark of anything.

Except for Denny of course.

[Joe Sr.]

Bigfoot is open fermented.

Speaking of Bigfoot, I need to get better at being able to squirrel away that beer.

I have a case in the basement that I won at a silent auction. I do not enjoy big foot so It will age.

If there's another case available this year I will bid on it, but not really planning to drink it.

I've tried. Don't enjoy it.

But it will. E interesting to see what happens to it in a few years.

[hopfenundmalz]

In my experiences, HBT can be a good resource, but one must filter through the static. I don't participate on that forum, but have read through plenty of flame wars and trolling threads. This forum, to me, offers a higher quality experience due to the lack of static.

Not about HBT specifically, but my favorite is when brewers, pro and home, are super proud of keeping their beers Reinheitsgebot. Lah-dee-flippin-da

I make many RHG compliant beers. Except when I don't. In Philly I had a lager that some liked and come back for multiple pours, even though it had some rice in the grist. CAPs have been a hit too, with 20% corn.

[Stevie]

But your signature doesn't make some snarky comment about it and this is the first of many post from you that I have seen it mentioned. You sir are not the type of guy.

[johnnyb]

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

I've done this on my last 3 batches because I wanted to try the no-stir method but was afraid of timing things properly. (Instead of shaking I inject with 15 seconds of O2 then let it sit.)

I take them out of the fridge and decant then let them warm up for about 2 hours before pitching and I've had 3 very short lag times each time. (3 of the shortest I've ever had.)

Going to get rid of my stir plate for sure.

[erockrph]

Bigfoot is open fermented.

Speaking of Bigfoot, I need to get better at being able to squirrel away that beer.

It's tough. I find putting it in a case at the bottom and back of the pile works best.

When it comes out every year, I buy two 6-packs 4-packs. One immediately goes into the cellar, where it is doomed never to be opened because everything down there is just too precious for me to open once it gets a little age on it. My beer hoard seems to be a bit out of control nowadays.

[narvin]

Ok gang, here is another gem that I participated in at HBT.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=538933

I had real trouble with this guy. He didn't seem to get it.

Actually I had fun with this guy.

Some people are best ignored because they will never get it.

Back to the topic, you can absolutely make great beer with air.  I did for years.  I switched to 02 because it's faster than an air pump, and while it may have improved my lagers a tiny bit, that could all be in my head.

If you want repeatibility you can get a medical oxygen regulator that fits cga-540 on eBay for pretty cheap.  As mentioned before, you're not going to know the actual level of O2 without a DO meter.

[narvin]

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

I've done this on my last 3 batches because I wanted to try the no-stir method but was afraid of timing things properly. (Instead of shaking I inject with 15 seconds of O2 then let it sit.)

I take them out of the fridge and decant then let them warm up for about 2 hours before pitching and I've had 3 very short lag times each time. (3 of the shortest I've ever had.)

Going to get rid of my stir plate for sure.

Just curious, why not do both?  Initial aeration is always a good idea, but from what people who have DO meters have said, it dissipates very quickly.

[johnnyb]

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

I've done this on my last 3 batches because I wanted to try the no-stir method but was afraid of timing things properly. (Instead of shaking I inject with 15 seconds of O2 then let it sit.)

I take them out of the fridge and decant then let them warm up for about 2 hours before pitching and I've had 3 very short lag times each time. (3 of the shortest I've ever had.)

Going to get rid of my stir plate for sure.

Just curious, why not do both?  Initial aeration is always a good idea, but from what people who have DO meters have said, it dissipates very quickly.

My starters seem to be reaching high krausen in 5 to 7 hours so it seems like they don't need anything more than the initial 15 seconds of pure O². I admit I could be wrong and extra shaking could be worthwhile.

[denny]

It takes time to find home base. Im 99% AHA forum, the rest is BN.

Im still learning. Hope I never stop. Of the few forums ive tried, this is the most real. Meaning there is relatively limited "internet-boldness".  People tend to be who they are, and pretty much post as they would if this was face to face. I've found that there are a lot of good sources of info out there, but you have to filter things to what works for you. Frankly, question authority. Just because a guy had a winning streak by submitting more beer than you can legally brew, including blended concoctions that best fit guidelines, doesn't equate to master of all things brewing knowledge for MY system - MY methods, - MY tastes. Famous yes. A kick ass brewer yes. Knowledgeable yes. But I am hesitant to make one guy the benchmark of anything.

Except for Denny of course.

I appreciate that, but I don't recommend it....

[erockrph]

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

I've done this on my last 3 batches because I wanted to try the no-stir method but was afraid of timing things properly. (Instead of shaking I inject with 15 seconds of O2 then let it sit.)

I take them out of the fridge and decant then let them warm up for about 2 hours before pitching and I've had 3 very short lag times each time. (3 of the shortest I've ever had.)

Going to get rid of my stir plate for sure.

Just curious, why not do both?  Initial aeration is always a good idea, but from what people who have DO meters have said, it dissipates very quickly.

My starters seem to be reaching high krausen in 5 to 7 hours so it seems like they don't need anything more than the initial 15 seconds of pure O². I admit I could be wrong and extra shaking could be worthwhile.

My guess is that the yeast are grabbing what they need rather quickly and taking off, making the extra aeration unnecessary. My starters have been noticeably more active and healthy since starting to use the "shaken, not stirred" method where you simply shake to a complete froth at the start, then just let your starter go. As a matter of fact, I think I need to start making my starters later than I used to, since they are reaching high krausen quite a bit earlier than my previous starters.

[Derek]

To which of course I was told that I basically had no frame of reference and that I needed to read all the science behind it and read "Yeast" and if all the breweries in the world are doing it why was I ignorant of the fact that better beer can't be made without Pure O2......

Next time one of those one-year-wonder brewers goes off on a tangent about how one cannot brew good beer without using pure O₂, ask him (it will be a him because women do not suffer from too much testosterone syndrome) what O₂ is used for in a fermentation and if there is anything that a brewer can do to limit the O₂ load in a fermentation.  You can then sit back with a bag of popcorn as he scrambles to come up with a coherent answer. 

Yeast use O₂ to synthesize ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acids (UFA).  They do so by shunting O₂ and a small amount of carbon (sugar is carbon bound to water) to the respirative (aerobic) metabolic pathway (all reproduction in wort is fermentative due to the fact that brewing yeast strains are Crabtree positive).  Ergosterol and UFAs make the plasma cell membrane more pliable, which, in turn, allows nutrients to enter and waste products to exit the cell.

One of the reasons why aeration is such a hot topic today is because more and more home brewers are pitching quiescent yeast cells (thanks in large part to disinformation being spread on HBT).  Twenty years ago, the average home brewer who made a starter knowingly or unknowingly pitched at high krausen.   The drill was to smack a pack of Wyeast (White Labs was a non-entity for the most part) the morning before brew day, allow it to swell during the day, make starter in the evening, and pitch the starter the next day.  Today, people are making starters days in advance and allowing them to ferment to completion, so that they can decant the supernatant.  By doing so, they are increasing the initial O₂ load placed on the wort when the culture is pitched. 

All allowing a starter to ferment past high krausen does is waste ergosterol and UFA reserves because the mother cells that were in suspension while O₂ was still in solution share the ergosterol and UFA reserves that they built with their daughter cells.   High krausen occurs as the culture reaches maximum cell density.  All replication beyond this point is for replacement only, which means that we are wasting ergosterol and UFAs when we allow a starter to ferment out.

High gravity and high alcohol beers share one thing in common; namely, the environment is hard on yeast cells, which means that cell membrane health is even more critical in high gravity/high alcohol environments. What makes cell membranes healthy? Ergosterol and UFAs make cell membranes healthy.  The reason why high gravity and high alcohol solutions are hard on yeast cells is because both environments draw water out of the cells.  In the case of high gravity wort, a phenomenon known as osmotic pressure is responsible for drawing water out of the cells.  Osmotic pressure is the result of the solute levels being different on opposite sides of a semi-permeable membrane.  Water is drawn to the side with the higher solute content (the hypertonic side), which is the wort.  In the case of high alcohol, alcohol is hygroscopic.  Anyone who has added "dry gas" to his/her gasoline tank in the winter to deal with condensation in the fuel supply has witnessed alcohol's ability to attract and hold water molecules.

In both cases, the lost of water inside of the cells results in the loss of something known as turgor pressure.  Turgor pressure is the pressure inside of a cell that pushes the plasma membrane up against the cell wall.  Loss of turgor pressure causes wrinkles in the membrane.  It also causes the cells to shrink.  Some of the cells cannot handle the pressure difference and implode.  Those that survive are not able pass nutrients and waste products as freely as they would be able to do in a less hypertonic solution. 

With that said, how do we reduce O₂ demands when pitching?  We do so by pitching a high krausen.  In the case high gravity wort, we pitch a larger number of cells at high krausen in order to account for the fact that many cells may not be able to handle the osmotic pressure.

Finally, why do commercial breweries use pure O₂?  Well, most commercial breweries repitch bottom-cropped yeast.  Bottom-cropped yeast is taken after the cells have reached quiescence; therefore, they have low ergosterol and UFA reserves.  Another reason why commercial breweries use pure O₂ more than likely has to do with efficiency.  Injecting pure O₂ is definitely more efficient than pumping air into wort.  Time is money and so is energy.

You know the drill. Basically the OP had asked for some advice and about 10 really nice and helpful comments were left and invariably someone had to say, "... If you don't do it this way your beer will suck..." Which is something that seems unnecessary to me.

Friends don't let friends read or post on HBT.   

I'm still digesting this. This is the kind of information I'm into.

So a good plan of attack for say, a large belgian like I enjoy brewing, would be to pitch a good size starter at high krausen and just get to saturation using shaking?

Why did people get away from this? I hear a lot of people who, through homebrew dogma it would seem, seem to let the starters finish and decant the beer before pitching. Your post indicates that this is more stressful to yeast once pitched than the high gravity environment.

Pitching at high krausen makes total sense from a yeast health standpoint. I wonder why people got away from it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[narvin]

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

I've done this on my last 3 batches because I wanted to try the no-stir method but was afraid of timing things properly. (Instead of shaking I inject with 15 seconds of O2 then let it sit.)

I take them out of the fridge and decant then let them warm up for about 2 hours before pitching and I've had 3 very short lag times each time. (3 of the shortest I've ever had.)

Going to get rid of my stir plate for sure.

Just curious, why not do both?  Initial aeration is always a good idea, but from what people who have DO meters have said, it dissipates very quickly.

My starters seem to be reaching high krausen in 5 to 7 hours so it seems like they don't need anything more than the initial 15 seconds of pure O². I admit I could be wrong and extra shaking could be worthwhile.

My guess is that the yeast are grabbing what they need rather quickly and taking off, making the extra aeration unnecessary. My starters have been noticeably more active and healthy since starting to use the "shaken, not stirred" method where you simply shake to a complete froth at the start, then just let your starter go. As a matter of fact, I think I need to start making my starters later than I used to, since they are reaching high krausen quite a bit earlier than my previous starters.

Or , the yeast is switching to fermentation phase earlier due to lack of oxygen, meaning less overall growth.