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Author Topic: Phenolic Feedback  (Read 10795 times)

Offline ethinson

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2015, 12:28:01 pm »
We ran across this issue in the last competition I judged a week or so ago with several beers.  The advice from the other judges I was with, who are more experienced than I (one a pro brewer), was to avoid chlorine at all costs, either in the water supply or bleach sanitizer.  Most of the people I've talked to no longer recommend sanitizing with diluted bleach.

I would think in the APA vs IPA difference that the hops are masking it.  It's a subtle flavor up to a point.  We were judging malty bocks with very little hops and it stuck out like a sore thumb, but I can't say I would notice it in a more hoppy or more flavorful beer.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2015, 01:19:35 pm »
Right, but isn't bleach and an acid particularly bad due to the fumes. Sure, others may cause violent results too, but bleach and acid is something my mom taught me when I was a kid.  I guess the danger is greatly reduced when diluted as you mentioned.
[/quote]

Was your mother a homebrewer too?

Offline toby

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2015, 08:00:36 am »
Was your mother a homebrewer too?
Probably not, but she probably used household cleaners.  Mix bleach and ammonia cleaners and you can potentially kill yourself.  There are all sorts of nasty things that can happen when you mix a highly reactive chemical solution with other highly reactive chemical solutions...
http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/Mixing-Bleach-And-Ammonia.htm

As you can see there, bleach and acids (even something like vinegar) will release chlorine gas.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 08:02:55 am by toby »

Offline rcemech

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2015, 09:58:34 am »
The strength of the solution is very important in how reactive the reagents are. You should always add your cleaners and sanitizers to water, never the other way around.

My hunch is that you get less chlorine gas evolved from solution when making sanitizer with bleach and ammonia in water as you do from letting chlorinated pool water sit out. In other words, don't worry about it, but don't mix them with your face stuck in the bucket.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2015, 01:29:59 am »
Ive had two or three of those phenolic beers crop up, though over a year ago. One was bottle conditioned the other kegged. I have no chlorine in my system,  so it was probably a bug. I cleaned and sanitized everything with iodophor and haven't had the issue since. Now I use iodophor on everything once or twice a year just for drill.

Offline hartigan

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2015, 09:07:02 am »
Hi strangers! It's been a busy time around the house with the newborn and no homebrewing consequently. I did get some scores back from a recent competition where I scored a 25  :o and a 37 (IPA that made it to the second round).

The Pale Ale that got terrible marks had numerous remarks around a phenolic off flavor (smoky/plastic). Two score sheets said the same thing (although I've been told judges score together so perhaps they influence each other).

While I'm not the best taster, I don't get this flavor at all. What is usually the main culprit for this off-flavor? I don't think my equipment or sanitation would be to blame as I've used the same stuff for other entries. Regarding my water (I saw notes about checking for chlorine), I only use RO/ Distilled and a mixture of filtered tap.

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Mashed at 153, normally my sparge water is around 185 or so.

You may be sparging to hot!  I was doing some experimenting with sparge temps and mashing out. When i would get around 180-190, my run off would be coming out around 170 but i was getting a phenolic, bandaid, plastic aroma and flavor. If the sparge gets to hot you will extract phenols from the grain husk. Just a suggestion that worked for me.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2015, 09:18:27 am »
You may be sparging to hot!  I was doing some experimenting with sparge temps and mashing out. When i would get around 180-190, my run off would be coming out around 170 but i was getting a phenolic, bandaid, plastic aroma and flavor. If the sparge gets to hot you will extract phenols from the grain husk. Just a suggestion that worked for me.

That's not my experience. I think it's totally pH related. Before I got serious about controlling pH, I extracted astringency even sparging with cooler water. I sparge @ 190F now and get no astringency because my pH is good. In a true mash out the grain bed is raised to 170F - the only way to do that is with much hotter water than mash temp. You don't have to sparge at 180 or 190, but if pH is good, no worries. My $0.02
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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2015, 09:50:05 am »
Isn't mixing bleach with any acid a basic no-no?

Only if one mixes bleach and acid before adding these compounds to water.    Add either compound and thoroughly mix before adding the other compound, and one is good.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 11:23:15 am by S. cerevisiae »

Offline denny

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2015, 10:22:07 am »
That's not my experience. I think it's totally pH related. Before I got serious about controlling pH, I extracted astringency even sparging with cooler water. I sparge @ 190F now and get no astringency because my pH is good. In a true mash out the grain bed is raised to 170F - the only way to do that is with much hotter water than mash temp. You don't have to sparge at 180 or 190, but if pH is good, no worries. My $0.02

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S. cerevisiae

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2015, 11:21:57 am »
We ran across this issue in the last competition I judged a week or so ago with several beers.  The advice from the other judges I was with, who are more experienced than I (one a pro brewer), was to avoid chlorine at all costs, either in the water supply or bleach sanitizer.  Most of the people I've talked to no longer recommend sanitizing with diluted bleach.

This recommendation along with the "don't rack to a secondary fermentation vessel because it will oxidize your beer" are examples home brewer oversimplification. A large percentage of professional craft brewers are just home brewers without any formal training in brewing science who moved on to operating what are effectively large-scale home breweries.  That progression does not mean that craft brewers without formal training are clueless dolts.  It just means that they are as susceptible to oversimplification as home brewers.  There are reasons not to use bleach, but "don't use at it any cost because it will ruin one's beer" is not a valid reason.

Sodium hypochlorite is manufactured commercially by combining sodium hydroxide (NaOH) with chlorine (Cl).  However, it can also be made by passing current through salt water, and that's what sodium hypochlorite eventually breaks down into after reduction.

Electrochlorination reaction

NaCl + H2O + energy → NaOCl + H2


Sodium hypochlorite is a strong oxidizer (which is why we do not use it on stainless steel) and a weak base.  What we are after when we use it as a sanitizer is hypochlorous acid.   Sodium hypochlorite is more readily converted to hypochlorus acid at a lower pH than a higher pH.   The role of white vinegar in the sanitizer is to counteract sodium hypochlorite's base buffering capacity.

Let's look at the ppm concentration of 30ml of bleach when mixed with 19000ml of water.  Non-concentrated household bleach contains approximately 5% sodium hypochlorite, which means that 1ml of household bleach mixed into 19000ml (5 gallons) of water produces a solution that contains 0.05 / 19000 x 1,000,000 = 2.63ppm sodium hypochlorite.  One fluid ounce equals approximately 30 milliliters; hence, one fluid ounce of bleach dissolved into 19000ml of water contains 30 x 2.63 = ~79ppm sodium hypochlorite.  That's a relatively small mount of sodium hypochlorite.  The pH lowering effect of vinegar is the key to turning it into an effective sanitizer. 

Now, for those who are afraid of the bleach bogeyman, how much residual liquid does the average 6.5-gallon bucket contain after being sanitized?  I would say a tablespoon at best, and that's the result of using the bucket immediately after dumping the sanitizer.  One tablespoon of 79ppm solution dissolved into 19000ml of wort contains 79 * 15 / 19000 = 0.062 ppm or 62 ppb decomposed sodium hypochlorite.  I challenge any brewer, beer judge, or beer drinker on the planet to be able to detect off-flavors produced by that low of concentration in a blind taste test.  This level of chlorination is not in the same state let alone the same zip code as a chlorinated water supply.  The EPA allows municipal water treatment plants to deliver water that contains up to 4 ppm residual chlorine.   
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 07:22:56 pm by S. cerevisiae »

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2015, 03:54:52 pm »
You may be sparging to hot!  I was doing some experimenting with sparge temps and mashing out. When i would get around 180-190, my run off would be coming out around 170 but i was getting a phenolic, bandaid, plastic aroma and flavor. If the sparge gets to hot you will extract phenols from the grain husk. Just a suggestion that worked for me.

That's not my experience. I think it's totally pH related. Before I got serious about controlling pH, I extracted astringency even sparging with cooler water. I sparge @ 190F now and get no astringency because my pH is good. In a true mash out the grain bed is raised to 170F - the only way to do that is with much hotter water than mash temp. You don't have to sparge at 180 or 190, but if pH is good, no worries. My $0.02

+1.  pH is most important, then temps. 

Offline thomasbarnes

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Re: Phenolic Feedback
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2015, 12:59:00 am »
The Pale Ale that got terrible marks had numerous remarks around a phenolic off flavor (smoky/plastic). Two score sheets said the same thing (although I've been told judges score together so perhaps they influence each other).

Peoples' perceptions differ, and some times certain hop blends can give the illusion of phenolic character. And, as you said, judges' perceptions can be flaky, even for higher level judges. (Although a National or better judge will be accurate more often than not, and should be able to explain exactly what perceptions they detect, and give correct suggestions for how they think those faults can be fixed.)

Additionally, many competitions use hard plastic cups which are lined with mold release compound which has a distinctive plastic smell. Unless cups used at the judging table are aired out prior to use that smell can linger and fool inexperienced judges into thinking there's a problem with the beer - particularly in the aroma.

So, it might be nothing at all, and just bad luck with judges.

But, in addition to the good suggestions provided so far:

1) How much caramelization/melanoidin development (i.e., darkening, toasty or "darker" malt character) are you getting during mash/boil? Do you suffer from scorching on the bottom of your boil kettle? Does your boil kettle have a layer of scorched/carbonized wort on the bottom?

Scorching, or even just extreme levels of caramelization, can produce smoky phenolic notes.

The fixes are to turn down the heat on your heating element during mash/boil, put a flame tamer under your boil kettle/mash tun,  and/or go to mashing/boiling vessels with better conductivity and thicker bottoms.

If it's present, do what you can to remove as much scorched material from the bottom of your brew kettle.

Smoky/plasticy phenols are unlikely to a result of polyphenols/tannins extracted from the mash by mashing out at too high a temperature, by somehow carrying grain particles into the boil, or by adding too much hop volume. Polyphenols will give a harsh, bitter flavor, which can sometimes seem "oaky," or "barrel-like," as well as distinctive drying, astringent mouthfeel character which can be mistaken for mouth-coating hop resins, acidity, or high mineral levels. pH above 5.8 in the mash, or prolonged temperatures above about 168 *F when mashing out or boiling, favor polyphenol/tannin development.

2) What's your cleaning/sterilization procedure like? In addition to the perils of using too much chlorine-based cleaner/sanitizer, wild yeast - which can throw plastic/smoky notes - can hide in cracks or crevices in your system, including areas where dirt isn't removed. You can't sanitize dirty equipment.

Take a long, hard look at all your cold side equipment, inspecting it carefully for cracks, pits or scratches. Are there bits of equipment that you're not fully taking apart where bugs can hide? Perhaps replace soft plastic cold side equipment like hoses or brew buckets. Make sure that you're properly cleaning your equipment - both to eliminate dirt and to prevent pitting or scratching.

3) What's your packaging procedure like?  Often times, brewers will really sweat cleaning, sanitation and rinsing for their cold side equipment, but not for their bottles or kegs. And, its really easy for wild yeast or other bugs to take hold in dirty kegs or bottles.

All the suggestions that apply to fermentation equipment apply to packaging equipment and containers.

Additionally, if you're using iodine-based sanitizers, make sure you're not soaking bottles/kegs in a too concentrated solution, and make sure that containers rinsed "no rinse" sanitizers are fully dry before you start packaging. Otherwise, you can get distinctive aromas/flavors, which can sometimes be mistaken for smoky/plasticy, in the finished beer.

4) What's your hop blend? Does it include high levels of hop strains which commonly get described as being "spicy" or "woodsy". Its just possible that to certain palates that hop blend might seem smoky.

5) What's your "yeast management" procedure?

If your yeast is contaminated with wild yeast, you can get smoky/plastic notes. Excessive yeast stress due to high temperatures, poor wort oxygenation, and/or underpitching can cause some strains of brewer's yeast to throw phenolic notes (typically clove/spice, but occasionally smoky or plasticy).

Are you pitching a sufficiently large, and sufficiently healthy starter? Are you using the same good wort production and cleaning/sanitization techniques you'd use in the brewhouse for the wort and equipment you use to make your yeast starter? Are you oxygenating your wort to achieve the proper levels of dissolved O2 for the wort's OG? Are you fermenting at the proper temperature range for your yeast strain?

If you're reculturing your yeast, are you using proper sterilization/exclusion procedures to get pure samples from batch to batch?

6) What's your water like, and what's your water treatment plan?

I've left this for last, since it's the least likely option since you said you're dechlorinating your water.

Unless you're living in a part of the world with water that needs to be extensively modified in order to make it suitable for brewing, and you have the knowledge, means and equipment to "built your brewing water from scratch," I'd recommend against using pure RO or distilled water. Your mash and your yeast need certain mineral and metal ions to be present at certain ranges in the water for optimum performance.

For most parts of the country, dechlorinated tap water is suitable for brewing some or all styles of beer, although for the large swaths of the country where there are high levels of temporary hardness, you might need to decarbonate your water prior to brewing the lighter styles. For the areas of the country where there are high levels of permanent hardness, you probably want to amend your dechlorinated tap water with RO/distilled water to get the mineral levels and pH right.

A final possibility is are you somehow getting chlorinated water into your beer? For example, if you've got an immersion chiller, a leaky faucet attachment or hose on the inflow side can allow chlorinated water to get into the wort. Check for leaks!

Are you rinsing your cold-side/packaging equipment with tap water and leaving significant amounts of water in the containers before you run wort/raw beer into them?