Author Topic: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?  (Read 6784 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2015, 07:40:19 PM »
I'm still digesting this. This is the kind of information I'm into.

So a good plan of attack for say, a large belgian like I enjoy brewing, would be to pitch a good size starter at high krausen and just get to saturation using shaking?

Why did people get away from this? I hear a lot of people who, through homebrew dogma it would seem, seem to let the starters finish and decant the beer before pitching. Your post indicates that this is more stressful to yeast once pitched than the high gravity environment.

Pitching at high krausen makes total sense from a yeast health standpoint. I wonder why people got away from it?


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I can give you my reasons...I care more about flavor than yeast health, basically.  I found that when I pitched full starters at high krausen I could taste the starter wort and didn't enjoy it.  By decanting the starter, I didn't get that and I continyed to get healthy fermentations and great tasting beer.  So I decided that was the way I was gonna go.

For many years I just did the shaking.  worked well, but sometimes kinda slow.  I was given an old, beat to crap stir plate and started using it.  I found that my starters finished in a couple days that way (I make 2-3 qt. starters most of the time).  I was aware of the cell shearing argument from many years ago, but found that if it was happening, it just didn't matter.

I reached both of these conclusions the same way...empirically, after studying the science.  Mark provides us with a lot of good science, and we all appreciate and benefit from it.  But my method has always been to collect info and test it to see how it works for me.  After starting out the way Mark recommends, I found that my current practices do a better job for me.  It was evidence, not the internet, that made me reach these conclusion.
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Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2015, 07:41:20 PM »
Or , the yeast is switching to fermentation phase earlier due to lack of oxygen, meaning less overall growth.

The yeast is in fermentation phase from the time you pitch it.
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Offline johnnyb

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2015, 07:56:22 PM »

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?


I've done this on my last 3 batches because I wanted to try the no-stir method but was afraid of timing things properly. (Instead of shaking I inject with 15 seconds of O2 then let it sit.)

I take them out of the fridge and decant then let them warm up for about 2 hours before pitching and I've had 3 very short lag times each time. (3 of the shortest I've ever had.)

Going to get rid of my stir plate for sure.

Just curious, why not do both?  Initial aeration is always a good idea, but from what people who have DO meters have said, it dissipates very quickly.


My starters seem to be reaching high krausen in 5 to 7 hours so it seems like they don't need anything more than the initial 15 seconds of pure O2. I admit I could be wrong and extra shaking could be worthwhile.
My guess is that the yeast are grabbing what they need rather quickly and taking off, making the extra aeration unnecessary. My starters have been noticeably more active and healthy since starting to use the "shaken, not stirred" method where you simply shake to a complete froth at the start, then just let your starter go. As a matter of fact, I think I need to start making my starters later than I used to, since they are reaching high krausen quite a bit earlier than my previous starters.

Or , the yeast is switching to fermentation phase earlier due to lack of oxygen, meaning less overall growth.

I guess it's hard to know for sure, but just eyeballing it, I'm collecting just as thick a layer of yeast as I did with a stir plate.

I'm still crashing and decanting. But instead of letting it go for 2 or 3 days on the stir plate, I'm watching it and crashing at high krausen which has been 5 to 7 hours. (One of them I didn't crash for 11 hours because I missed high krausen somehow.)

With this method my lag time when pitching to oxygenated wort has been a few hours less than when I was using the stir plate method. Small sample size though.

 


« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 12:13:09 AM by johnnyb »

Derek

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2015, 11:03:45 PM »

I'm still digesting this. This is the kind of information I'm into.

So a good plan of attack for say, a large belgian like I enjoy brewing, would be to pitch a good size starter at high krausen and just get to saturation using shaking?

Why did people get away from this? I hear a lot of people who, through homebrew dogma it would seem, seem to let the starters finish and decant the beer before pitching. Your post indicates that this is more stressful to yeast once pitched than the high gravity environment.

Pitching at high krausen makes total sense from a yeast health standpoint. I wonder why people got away from it?


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I can give you my reasons...I care more about flavor than yeast health, basically.  I found that when I pitched full starters at high krausen I could taste the starter wort and didn't enjoy it.  By decanting the starter, I didn't get that and I continyed to get healthy fermentations and great tasting beer.  So I decided that was the way I was gonna go.

For many years I just did the shaking.  worked well, but sometimes kinda slow.  I was given an old, beat to crap stir plate and started using it.  I found that my starters finished in a couple days that way (I make 2-3 qt. starters most of the time).  I was aware of the cell shearing argument from many years ago, but found that if it was happening, it just didn't matter.

I reached both of these conclusions the same way...empirically, after studying the science.  Mark provides us with a lot of good science, and we all appreciate and benefit from it.  But my method has always been to collect info and test it to see how it works for me.  After starting out the way Mark recommends, I found that my current practices do a better job for me.  It was evidence, not the internet, that made me reach these conclusion.

I'll have to experiment. I'm typically using small starters (500 ml) for my 1 gal batches. I usually take a smack pack and pitch it to two separate 500 ml glass jars. I do two starters and save one. I'm typically only using 350-400 ml of wort. So I'm not sure how the flavor will be impacted.




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Offline narvin

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2015, 12:57:04 AM »
Or , the yeast is switching to fermentation phase earlier due to lack of oxygen, meaning less overall growth.

The yeast is in fermentation phase from the time you pitch it.

I don't know if you're being pedantic, but there are distinct phases of yeast growth.  Being a fan of MB Raines, I'm sure you know that.  :D

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 12:58:42 AM by narvin »

Offline narvin

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2015, 01:00:26 AM »
I'm still digesting this. This is the kind of information I'm into.

So a good plan of attack for say, a large belgian like I enjoy brewing, would be to pitch a good size starter at high krausen and just get to saturation using shaking?

Why did people get away from this? I hear a lot of people who, through homebrew dogma it would seem, seem to let the starters finish and decant the beer before pitching. Your post indicates that this is more stressful to yeast once pitched than the high gravity environment.

Pitching at high krausen makes total sense from a yeast health standpoint. I wonder why people got away from it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can give you my reasons...I care more about flavor than yeast health, basically.  I found that when I pitched full starters at high krausen I could taste the starter wort and didn't enjoy it.  By decanting the starter, I didn't get that and I continyed to get healthy fermentations and great tasting beer.  So I decided that was the way I was gonna go.

100% agree with this, in my experience.

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2015, 03:47:52 PM »
Or , the yeast is switching to fermentation phase earlier due to lack of oxygen, meaning less overall growth.

Under aeration does not affect reproduction as much as it affects yeast performance due to poorer yeast health..  There is no aerobic growth phase in beer wort.  Early home brewing texts erroneously stated that yeast biomass growth occurs in the presence of O2 (Pasteur effect) and that yeast cells switch over to fermentation after O2 has been scrubbed from the wort.  Brewing yeast strains are Crabtree positive; therefore, reproduction occurs via the anaerobic (fermentative) metabolic pathway whenever the dissolved glucose level is above 0.3%, and it does so even in the presence of O2.  The glucose level in wort above 1.008 exceeds 0.3%.





Offline denny

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2015, 04:34:48 PM »
Or , the yeast is switching to fermentation phase earlier due to lack of oxygen, meaning less overall growth.

The yeast is in fermentation phase from the time you pitch it.

I don't know if you're being pedantic, but there are distinct phases of yeast growth.  Being a fan of MB Raines, I'm sure you know that.  :D

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

The Crabtree Effect says that in the presence of a >.5% glucose solution (like wort) fermentation begins immediately.

Or what Mark said!  ^^^^^
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Offline narvin

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2015, 05:27:05 PM »
Right, I stand correct.  Sorry to perpetuate a common brewing myth.  I'm still curious about the original question: why does fermenting without continuous aeration proceed to high krausen faster?  Is a longer lag phase building cell walls and reservers still a valid hypothesis, which would lead to healthier (possibly more?) yeast?  Many people have conducted experiments that show a correlation between amount of oxygen added and yeast growth.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 05:37:15 PM by narvin »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2015, 05:36:09 PM »
Right, I stand correct.  Sorry to perpetuate a common brewing myth.  I'm still curious about the original question: why does fermenting without continuous aeration proceed to high krausen faster?  Is a longer lag phase building cell walls and reservers still a valid hypothesis, which would lead to healthier (possibly more?) yeast?  Many people have conducted experiments that show a correlation between amount of oxygen added and yeast growth.
Just to clarify my earlier comment, I did not use a stir plate prior to the "Shaken, not stirred" method. I simply shook to aerate initially, then shook the starter every chance I could. Now I specifically target getting the initial shaking to the point where the starter is almost entirely foam, including dividing it into two separate vessels if needed to provide adequate headspace for the initial shake. I have no personal experience with a stirplate, so I cannot compare those two methods.
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Offline narvin

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2015, 05:40:20 PM »
Just to clarify my earlier comment, I did not use a stir plate prior to the "Shaken, not stirred" method. I simply shook to aerate initially, then shook the starter every chance I could. Now I specifically target getting the initial shaking to the point where the starter is almost entirely foam, including dividing it into two separate vessels if needed to provide adequate headspace for the initial shake. I have no personal experience with a stirplate, so I cannot compare those two methods.

Ah, I was assuming the same amount of initial aeration with the only difference being what happened after pitching.  Next time, it would be interesting to see what happens if you shake one vessel intermittently during the first 12 hours, and leave the other one alone.

Offline Hooper

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2015, 02:15:24 AM »
Homemade cigar box stir plate...it's cool and i don't have to shake the starter...5 lb oxygen tank with a medical regulator...it's a pretty simple setup...I'm not gonna panic if either fails...haven't noticed any negative affects since I went to this setup...
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