[Derek]

What effect does the ratio of the two have?

In and of itself, none. 200 ppm sulfate and 20 ppm chloride won't taste the same as 20 ppm and 2 ppm.

I understand that much. I get that any ratio is contingent on the values used. I guess my question is, after establishing your values for sulfate and chloride, does it really matter what the ratio of the two is?

I'm used to seeing it listed in the brewing water sheets, and I am sure that for different beers it varies, but is it an important variable to tweak or just a byproduct?

As good as "How to Brew" is, much of Palmer's info on water in that book is outdated, yet many still consider it gospel. That's where I think the pervasive use of the Cl:SO₄ ratio in homebrewing comes from. Water treatment is much more complex than what he focuses on in that book.

Sulfate enhances a dry finish, which lends itself well to styles such as West Coast IPA that shoot for a dry hoppiness. Chloride is a flavor enhancer that tends to highlight malt, in particular giving it a bit of a fuller/richer quality. The two ions work independantly, and do not counter or "neutralize" each other, which is something that a ratio implies. All the ratio may be helpful in is showing whether the particular balance of ions in that beer may be pushing a dry finish more than malty fullness, or vice versa. But even then, that's of minimal use because many styles can use a bit of each.

It's better to throw away the ratio altogether and focus on the two ions individually. You will likely settle on a particular ratio naturally, but that's mainly just a relic of looking at the two ions individually.

Understood. So the references to it in say, Brun Water, are useful as a landmark for very high level flavor and color considerations?

[HoosierBrew]

+1 to ratio being minimally important, if at all. Any brewer should obviously tailor their water chemistry to their own preferences. Having said that, the "found a statistically significant negative correlation between the intensity of hop flavor and level of sulfate in the brewing water" quote is directly opposite to my experience and others, I'm sure. Try brewing a hoppy beer with no gypsum and the exact same recipe with a moderate amount of gypsum and compare. I would say it's a fairly positive correlation.

EDIT - Hop bitterness is noticeably enhanced by sulfate as opposed to hop flavor per se, but I've always felt that, by making the beer drier, overall hoppiness is enhanced with sulfate.

[brulosopher]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe the chloride/sulfate ratio is of more importance than the chloride and sulfate amounts individually.

You're wrong. The ratio doesn't matter at all, it's the amount of chloride or sulfate.

Yeah. The ratio can be helpful, but the amounts actually matter.

[BrodyR]

Over the past 3 months I have been playing around a lot with my hoppy beers.  My goal has been a "softer" and "fuller" beer with lots of hop flavor and aroma.   Long story short...... I have been brewing some IPA's I really love, and others do as well.  The Chloride/Sulfate levels I have been having the most success with are approximately 130 Chloride to 65 sulfate (approx.).  I have loved the outcomes of these beers.  This is a "cut and paste" from a thread on HBT where I posted one of my favorite IPA/APA's ...... This has become the go-to template for most of my APA/IPA type beers:

Recent things that I have been happy with:
*12-15% flaked grains in grain bill
*2:1 Chloride to sulfate. Been going about 130:65ppm for recent beers
*Using some canning salt to get my Na up from 0 to 30 or so
*Using some of my high bicarbonate water (20-40%)
*pH's of my best versions have all been what I would consider high.... with mash/boil kettle (preboil) around 5.45 or even a touch higher. This seems to be pushing the high end of pH to me....but, I like the results better than 5.2-5.3 I don't know why this would be..... but it is.
*Lower carbonation.... not flat, but not biting.
*Primary dry hop plus a second, short dry hop in a hopping keg, under CO2 and jump to serving keg after 48 hours. I use this method and it works awesome - http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

(This dry hopping strategy has been AWESOME. I highly recommend it)

Recipe for the citra beer in picture below:
(6.5 gallon batch at end of boil - gets me 5 into keg eventually)
Grain:
41% Rahr 2 Row
41% Maris Otter
8% Flaked Oats
4% Flaked Barley
2% Flaked Wheat
3% Crystal 20


1.058 OG

Hops:
.75 oz. Warrior (60)
3 oz. Citra Flameout
Start to chill and shut off chiller with wort at 160-170
3oz. Citra Hopstand for 30-40 minutes, occasional stirring/swirling
Chill the rest of the way and let settle out for another 20-30 minutes
3oz. Dryhop in primary somewhere around day 5-7 for about 5 days.
Transfer to purged keg with dryhopping set up (in link above) with 3 more ounces of citra in the keg. Jump it to serving keg 2 days later.

Yeast:
I have been using Conan but other yeasts would work well I am sure.
Start ferment at 62 and let free rise to 66-68 for the first 4 days. Then move fermenter to where ambient is 68-70 for duration.

Water:
Using in mash and sparge water-
Gypsum .2 gr/gallon
CaCl .6 gr/gallon
Epsom .1 gr/gallon
Canning salt .2 gr/gallon

RO= 60%, Tap = 40% (your water may vary - mine is HIGH bicarbonate in the 260 range)

Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 135
Bicarbonate = 128

Lactic Acid in mash and sparge = .5ml/gallon

Mash pH = 5.45
pre boil = 5.47
Post boil = 5.30


At any rate, that is my latest (and favorite so far) of the ones I have been brewing. Two others on finishing dry hop and getting carbed. Fairly similar though as I have been really pleased with this general process lately.


Some of the things in this recipe obviously seem to go counter to brewing light colored IPA type beers..... low sulfate, high chloride, Bicarbonate water, pH's pushing the higher ranges...... but this strategy has bee producing the best IPA's I have ever brewed.... batch after batch (15-20 APA/IPA's over the past 3-4 months).

I was inspired down this road with various vermont/east coast hoppy beers as well as some others (treehouse, tired hands, etc.)

Agreed - I live pretty close to Tired Hands and have made the pilgrimage to Vermont. The closest I've come to TH/Vermont beers is with more chloride, more dry hops, more flaked oats (I've done 10-20%), and English yeast. I've been targeting 5.3ph though and haven't taken the sulfate that extreme yet (Haven't gone past 100ppm), maybe I'll try it out.

[denny]

What's the deal with calcium chloride and IPA's?
1. There's this rumor that Heady Topper uses a lot of calcium chloride, and not the expected gypsum in its brewing water. Can anyone confirm? What would be the effect?

2. Has anybody read Van Havig's "Maximizing Hop Aroma and Flavor Through Process Variables"? There's an abstract here: http://www.mbaa.com/publications/tq/tqPastIssues/2010/Abstracts/TQ-47-2-0623-01.htm - in the article he claims that they "found a statistically significant negative correlation between the intensity of hop flavor and level of sulfate in the brewing water." Does anyone know more about this?

I also (and I think most homebrewers agree) find no correlation between hop flavor and sulfate levels.  Now, perception if bitterness and dry finish is another matter....

[homoeccentricus]

I also (and I think most homebrewers agree) find no correlation between hop flavor and sulfate levels.  Now, perception if bitterness and dry finish is another matter....

Ah yes, of course, stupid me!

[braufessor]

Hahaha, this is obviously a picture of Hill Farmstead Susan. See my other thread
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24085.msg307395#msg307395



Awesome info!

That is actually of a picture of the beer I brewed..... although, I believe I used 3% caramel 40 instead of 3% caramel 20 in it.

[homoeccentricus]

Recipe for the citra beer in picture below:
(6.5 gallon batch at end of boil - gets me 5 into keg eventually)
Grain:
41% Rahr 2 Row
41% Maris Otter
8% Flaked Oats
4% Flaked Barley
2% Flaked Wheat
3% Crystal 20


1.058 OG

Hops:
.75 oz. Warrior (60)
3 oz. Citra Flameout
Start to chill and shut off chiller with wort at 160-170
3oz. Citra Hopstand for 30-40 minutes, occasional stirring/swirling
Chill the rest of the way and let settle out for another 20-30 minutes
3oz. Dryhop in primary somewhere around day 5-7 for about 5 days.
Transfer to purged keg with dryhopping set up (in link above) with 3 more ounces of citra in the keg. Jump it to serving keg 2 days later.

Yeast:
I have been using Conan but other yeasts would work well I am sure.
Start ferment at 62 and let free rise to 66-68 for the first 4 days. Then move fermenter to where ambient is 68-70 for duration.

Water:
Using in mash and sparge water-
Gypsum .2 gr/gallon
CaCl .6 gr/gallon
Epsom .1 gr/gallon
Canning salt .2 gr/gallon

RO= 60%, Tap = 40% (your water may vary - mine is HIGH bicarbonate in the 260 range)

Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 135
Bicarbonate = 128

Lactic Acid in mash and sparge = .5ml/gallon

Mash pH = 5.45
pre boil = 5.47
Post boil = 5.30

Hi Brau,

I am now in possession of the Conan yeast, and am seriously considering brewing your citra IPA.  I have a question about IBU's: 0.75 oz of Warrior @ 60 gives me only around 29 IBU in Beersmith. Are you counting on the other IBU's to come from the Citra flameout and hopstand? Is there a formula to calculate how many "hidden" IBU's that would amount to?

[narvin]

*pH's of my best versions have all been what I would consider high.... with mash/boil kettle (preboil) around 5.45 or even a touch higher. This seems to be pushing the high end of pH to me....but, I like the results better than 5.2-5.3 I don't know why this would be..... but it is.

I wouldn't call your pH high, unless you're taking measurements at mash temps. The pH range of 5.1 - 5.5 at mash temperature (which is where the optimal 5.2 is referenced) corresponds roughly to 5.4 - 5.8 at 20 C. 

I'll get down into the 5.3 - 5.4 range for lagers, and I think it gives a smoother bitterness.  For ales anywhere in 5.4 - 5.6 seems to be okay.  Some German texts have mentioned benefits of going as low as 5.2 at room temperature, but I don't think it's common.