Author Topic: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?  (Read 2748 times)

Offline BrodyR

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Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« on: August 27, 2015, 02:29:43 PM »
Being an ale guy recently getting into lager I haven't brewed with either. What do you guys prefer for a pils and how heavily do you tend to late hop with the style? I was thinking about a FWH & 10m addition but open to suggestions.

If I understand correctly a Czech pils uses all Saaz, German styles hop heavier and use German noble hops, and Helles is a lighter hopped pils? Anyway my recipe is:

100% Pils (well almost 100%, a touch of acid malt for ph)
Czechvar Yeast
1.048

Sounds like Best is the preferred pils grain?

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 02:58:35 PM »
Being an ale guy recently getting into lager I haven't brewed with either. What do you guys prefer for a pils and how heavily do you tend to late hop with the style? I was thinking about a FWH & 10m addition but open to suggestions.

If I understand correctly a Czech pils uses all Saaz, German styles hop heavier and use German noble hops, and Helles is a lighter hopped pils? Anyway my recipe is:

100% Pils (well almost 100%, a touch of acid malt for ph)
Czechvar Yeast
1.048

Sounds like Best is the preferred pils grain?

IMO, FWH is in no way a sub for a 60 min, addition.  For a pils, I do FWH, 60 and 0 for hops.  I make only German pils and use either Hallertau or Tettnang most of the time.  I shoot for maybe 40ish IBU.  Sometimes I'll toss in a lb. of Munich II to bump up the malt, sometimes I don't.  After using a lot of different continental malts, I've settled on Best as my favorite.
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Offline BrodyR

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 03:08:19 PM »
Being an ale guy recently getting into lager I haven't brewed with either. What do you guys prefer for a pils and how heavily do you tend to late hop with the style? I was thinking about a FWH & 10m addition but open to suggestions.

If I understand correctly a Czech pils uses all Saaz, German styles hop heavier and use German noble hops, and Helles is a lighter hopped pils? Anyway my recipe is:

100% Pils (well almost 100%, a touch of acid malt for ph)
Czechvar Yeast
1.048

Sounds like Best is the preferred pils grain?

IMO, FWH is in no way a sub for a 60 min, addition.  For a pils, I do FWH, 60 and 0 for hops.  I make only German pils and use either Hallertau or Tettnang most of the time.  I shoot for maybe 40ish IBU.  Sometimes I'll toss in a lb. of Munich II to bump up the malt, sometimes I don't.  After using a lot of different continental malts, I've settled on Best as my favorite.

FWH, 60, 0 sounds like a good schedule

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 03:24:36 PM »
For a traditional bopils you want to use all saaz but don't feel like you have to limit yourself to what tradition calls for. You can brew a bopils-style pilsner with German noble varieties or some of the eastern European varieties. Just depends on what you desire in your beer.
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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2015, 03:32:12 PM »
For a traditional bopils you want to use all saaz but don't feel like you have to limit yourself to what tradition calls for. You can brew a bopils-style pilsner with German noble varieties or some of the eastern European varieties. Just depends on what you desire in your beer.

+1.  And while not European grown noble varieties, there are some really nice American hops of noble origin like Mt Hood, Liberty, Sterling,Crystal, etc. Those make really nice beers.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2015, 05:59:02 PM »
For a traditional bopils you want to use all saaz but don't feel like you have to limit yourself to what tradition calls for. You can brew a bopils-style pilsner with German noble varieties or some of the eastern European varieties. Just depends on what you desire in your beer.

+1.  And while not European grown noble varieties, there are some really nice American hops of noble origin like Mt Hood, Liberty, Sterling,Crystal, etc. Those make really nice beers.

+1 to really enjoying Mt. Hood and Liberty in clean lagers. 

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 06:51:32 PM »
also like select spalt mixed with Hallertauer  and magnum. 40ish IBU for northern ger pils also.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 07:11:43 AM »
Czechvar yeast makes a fine Czech Pils, but is too soft for German Pils. Saaz is the traditional choice for that style, and may be expected if this is for a competition. Otherwise any noble or noble-ish hop will suit you just fine. I agree with all the other varieties mentioned by others and will add that Ultra makes a nice choice as well.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 12:18:09 PM »
Saaz is almost required for a Czeck Pils, but it does well in a German Pils too. HM and Tettnager are ones I often use in my German Pils.

On the American derivatives, ones not mentioned but worthy of using in a brew just to see are Vangaurd and Santium. Or use several in a German Pils. I have made some good ones using Vangaurd, Tettnanger, and HM or Sazz for bittering, flavor, and aroma respectively. Some are saying to make a blend, and use that blend for all additions - that is one the list to do!
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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 11:43:19 PM »
Blending is fun and great way to find something you like. up this weekend is a pils with 4 hop blend for 40IBU:

0.75 oz   Magnum [12.40 %] - Boil 40.0 min   Hop   3   26.0 IBUs
1.00 oz   Hallertauer [2.70 %] - Boil 15.0 min   Hop   4   4.3 IBUs
1.00 oz   Saaz [3.60 %] -       Boil 15.0 min   Hop   5   5.7 IBUs
1.00 oz   Select Spalt [2.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min   Hop   6   3.8 IBUs
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Steve Ruch

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 10:26:40 PM »
Either one would work well in a pilsner. Blend them?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2015, 03:36:21 AM »
Good information in your post.

For hop additions I follow the Kai schedule. Maybe load up a little more on the end.

Czech Pils malt is from Moravia, and is of the Hanka/Hanna(SP?) varieties. PU malts their own malt, so there is always the question in my mind as to what color is it kilned to.
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Offline BrodyR

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2015, 05:26:13 PM »
This is great info - I think I'm gonna follow that schedule with HM for my next pils & add 5% light Crystal or Munich

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2015, 05:30:01 PM »
They are really nice together, but if you want to learn how each of them taste it might be nice to brew a German pils with all HM, then a Czech pils with all saaz.

One classic hopping schedule for a German pils that I saw Kai post a while back (and supposedly came from a German brewing textbook) was to add 50% of the total alpha acids at 60, 25% at 30, and 25% at 10. If you're only using one type of hop, then this simply corresponds to adding 50% of the hops at 60, 25% at 30, and 25% at 10. You can then scale the absolute amount of hops to hit whatever IBU level you're looking for - I prefer about 35, but there's a wide range of bitterness levels that would be considered to style. Using that as a baseline, you can then bump up the later additions if you're looking for more flavor or aroma, or even add a flameout addition to see what you like. The 50%/25%/25% schedule will give you something pretty close to most modern commercial pilsners, which has a firm, smooth bitterness but is pretty light on the hop aroma.

IBU calculators can only give you a rough estimate of what the actual, perceived bitterness is going to be, and the hop utilization on your system might be different than on my system. Keeping notes about how I liked the hop bitterness, flavor, and aroma in a particular batch allows me to adjust future batches accordingly. Bottom line, I do find that getting the hopping just right in a pils takes some trial and error.

As far as German pils grain bills go, I recently made one with 93% Avangard pils, 5% Avangard light crystal 8L, and 2% acid malt. It was my first time using the Avangard light crystal, but I really like how it came out! It didn't end up adding much sweetness at all (OG was 1.050 and FG 1.012), and the beer has just a really nice maltiness that's a little different than the kind you get using 5% Munich malt. I imagine that this malt is the equivalent of carahell as sold by BM or Weyermann.

I remember reading a while back that Leos from Lazy Monk mentioned it's common nowadays for pilsners made in the Czech Republic to use 2-4% caramunich, and the rest pilsner malt with a little acid malt. That's supposedly how a lot of them get the deep golden color and little bit of extra maltiness. I also believe that Czech pilsner malt is made with a slightly different process than German pilsner malt, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. I think it is a hair darker, though.

WY2124/WLP830 is a great yeast for a German pils, but believe it or not I like WY2308/WLP838 quite a bit for that style, too.

Oh, one last thing...I find that a lower boil pH tends to give a smoother hop bitterness. 5.1 to 5.3 is a good range. If you're using low alkalinity water, and acidifying your sparge water, you shouldn't notice a big difference between your mash and boil pH. For my pilsners I usually hit about 5.3 for both the mash and boil.

All looks good except for the FG on the pils.. needs to be closer to 1.008 :)

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Saaz or Hallertauer Mitt?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 01:22:31 AM »

They are really nice together, but if you want to learn how each of them taste it might be nice to brew a German pils with all HM, then a Czech pils with all saaz.

One classic hopping schedule for a German pils that I saw Kai post a while back (and supposedly came from a German brewing textbook) was to add 50% of the total alpha acids at 60, 25% at 30, and 25% at 10. If you're only using one type of hop, then this simply corresponds to adding 50% of the hops at 60, 25% at 30, and 25% at 10. You can then scale the absolute amount of hops to hit whatever IBU level you're looking for - I prefer about 35, but there's a wide range of bitterness levels that would be considered to style. Using that as a baseline, you can then bump up the later additions if you're looking for more flavor or aroma, or even add a flameout addition to see what you like. The 50%/25%/25% schedule will give you something pretty close to most modern commercial pilsners, which has a firm, smooth bitterness but is pretty light on the hop aroma.

IBU calculators can only give you a rough estimate of what the actual, perceived bitterness is going to be, and the hop utilization on your system might be different than on my system. Keeping notes about how I liked the hop bitterness, flavor, and aroma in a particular batch allows me to adjust future batches accordingly. Bottom line, I do find that getting the hopping just right in a pils takes some trial and error.

As far as German pils grain bills go, I recently made one with 93% Avangard pils, 5% Avangard light crystal 8L, and 2% acid malt. It was my first time using the Avangard light crystal, but I really like how it came out! It didn't end up adding much sweetness at all (OG was 1.050 and FG 1.012), and the beer has just a really nice maltiness that's a little different than the kind you get using 5% Munich malt. I imagine that this malt is the equivalent of carahell as sold by BM or Weyermann.

I remember reading a while back that Leos from Lazy Monk mentioned it's common nowadays for pilsners made in the Czech Republic to use 2-4% caramunich, and the rest pilsner malt with a little acid malt. That's supposedly how a lot of them get the deep golden color and little bit of extra maltiness. I also believe that Czech pilsner malt is made with a slightly different process than German pilsner malt, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. I think it is a hair darker, though.

WY2124/WLP830 is a great yeast for a German pils, but believe it or not I like WY2308/WLP838 quite a bit for that style, too.

Oh, one last thing...I find that a lower boil pH tends to give a smoother hop bitterness. 5.1 to 5.3 is a good range. If you're using low alkalinity water, and acidifying your sparge water, you shouldn't notice a big difference between your mash and boil pH. For my pilsners I usually hit about 5.3 for both the mash and boil.

All looks good except for the FG on the pils.. needs to be closer to 1.008 :)
Czech Pilsner should have FG about 1014.
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