[BrodyR]

A friend of mine just got into brewing and wants to tackle a Berlinner Weiss for his 2nd brew. I haven't done any sours yet so wanted to make sure we have everything straight:

1) Grain Bill: 60% Pils, 40% White Wheat
2) Hops: 6ibus from Hallertauer Mitt
3) Water: Targeting 50 Calcium, 50 Sulfate, 100 Chloride
4) Yeast: Wyeast 5335 then S-05

The Process:
We plan on doing a normal BIAB mash targeting 5.3pH.
After the mash we plan on cooling to ~120f (no boil yet) then adjusting the pH down to 4.5
Rack into a carboy with a heating belt and wrap it up to stop it from loosing too much heat
Pitch the Lacto (no starter and no oxygen) and let it cook for a few days.
Transfer the brew back to the kettle, boil for 10m to add the hops and kill the bugs
Chill and ferment with S-05 as normal.
 
Are we messing anything up process or ingredient wise? Think a 10m boil is going to a problem, especially with Pils malt? Was considering a full length boil.

[jtoots]

that's an ambitious second batch!!

[BrodyR]

that's an ambitious second batch!!

Agreed! I helped him do an extract Hefeweizen for batch one then straight on to all grain sours haha. I'm fairly unfamiliar with the sour process but he's been doing a good bit of reading/podcast listening on it. Only thing wild I've worked with is the Yeast Bay's Funktown Pale Ale strain. Thinking about picking up that American Sour Beers book.

[kramerog]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

[BrodyR]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Nice, glad to hear

[kramerog]

The chloride level seems high for a sour to me.  What is the reasoning behind the mineral profile?

[BrodyR]

The chloride level seems high for a sour to me.  What is the reasoning behind the mineral profile?

Took it from Tonsmiere's (The Mad Fermantationalist) blog post. Looks like he used a pale low hop profile. The past was from 2008 tho in case best practices changed.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/02/berliner-weiss.html

[reverseapachemaster]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Where did you come up with this?

[BrodyR]

A friend of mine just got into brewing and wants to tackle a Berlinner Weiss for his 2nd brew. I haven't done any sours yet so wanted to make sure we have everything straight:

1) Grain Bill: 60% Pils, 40% White Wheat
2) Hops: 6ibus from Hallertauer Mitt
3) Water: Targeting 50 Calcium, 50 Sulfate, 100 Chloride
4) Yeast: Wyeast 5335 then S-05

The Process:
We plan on doing a normal BIAB mash targeting 5.3pH.
After the mash we plan on cooling to ~120f (no boil yet) then adjusting the pH down to 4.5
Rack into a carboy with a heating belt and wrap it up to stop it from loosing too much heat
Pitch the Lacto (no starter and no oxygen) and let it cook for a few days.
Transfer the brew back to the kettle, boil for 10m to add the hops and kill the bugs
Chill and ferment with S-05 as normal.
 
Are we messing anything up process or ingredient wise? Think a 10m boil is going to a problem, especially with Pils malt? Was considering a full length boil.

After listening to Michael Dawson's (Wyeast/Northern Brewer) beersmith podcast making a couple tweaks.

1) Going to do a brief boil both before & after pitching lacto.
2) Will inoculate at 105f (his highest ideal range, wanted to shoot high to make up for any cooling)

[BrodyR]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Where did you come up with this?

Same Dawson podcast I just referenced and finished suggested to briefly boil pre-pitch to drive it off... but 10m when conventional wisdom is 90m for pilsner malt?

[klickitat jim]

I do a starter with 5335, by pitching into a 1/2 quart jar of pre-canned starter wort, no aeration or o2. That sits on a heat pad for a week before brew day. I pitch the whole thing on brew day, and that sits for a week at 100º. That gets me to 3.2 pH. If you go with no starter, dont hold it steady at 100ish, and only let it sit a few days, then kill the lacto in a boil, it won't be very sour. It might get below 4ph but barely.

DMS... its created with pils above a certain temp. Whether or not its an issue in a sour beer is debatable. If you like DMS in sours then not an issue. I dont, so its an issue. Either boil 90 min, or just heat it to pasturation temp. I would heat to 170 and then wirlpool my hops. Since the lacto is done at that point no worry on keeping IBUs low, so I would toss about 3 ounces of mittelfruh in and wirlpool it for about 30 min at 170.

Pitch big with the 1056/05. No O2. Infact through out this brew I would be purging with co2. I would sour in the kettle for that reason, it eliminates one transfer (less o2 exposure). The nasty bugs that may be present are kept in check by eliminating o2.

Edit: Caveat, I haven't made a Berliner per se, but I make sours using a somewhat similar process. Im pitching brett where you are pitching sac. I no longer use hops because that low of an amount simply doesn't show through all the lactic and brett, but in a Berliner you'll pick them up so I would hop bigger and in the wirlpool.

[brewday]

I've had good results with no-boil Berliners using the following process:

- Lacto (5335) starter, no O2/no stir, 1 week @90-100F
- Pitch lacto starter, no O2, 1 week @90-100F
- Drop temp to 65F, O2 as usual, pitch 1007
- Pitch Brett L (optional, but I like) ~3 days later
- Primary ~3 weeks, Bottle condition 6+ months

Good luck!

[kramerog]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Where did you come up with this?

Personal experience and prevalence of 10 minute boils in making sour worted Berliner Weiss.  Do you disagree, Reverse?

[kramerog]

The chloride level seems high for a sour to me.  What is the reasoning behind the mineral profile?

Took it from Tonsmiere's (The Mad Fermantationalist) blog post. Looks like he used a pale low hop profile. The past was from 2008 tho in case best practices changed.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/02/berliner-weiss.html

Subsequent Berliner Weiss's in the Mad Fermentationist blog appear sometimes to not have any added salts.  My recommendation is that other than adding salts to get the desired mash pH, minerals should be sparingly used to avoid salty flavors in sours unless making a Gose.

[BrodyR]

I do a starter with 5335, by pitching into a 1/2 quart jar of pre-canned starter wort, no aeration or o2. That sits on a heat pad for a week before brew day. I pitch the whole thing on brew day, and that sits for a week at 100º. That gets me to 3.2 pH. If you go with no starter, dont hold it steady at 100ish, and only let it sit a few days, then kill the lacto in a boil, it won't be very sour. It might get below 4ph but barely.

DMS... its created with pils above a certain temp. Whether or not its an issue in a sour beer is debatable. If you like DMS in sours then not an issue. I dont, so its an issue. Either boil 90 min, or just heat it to pasturation temp. I would heat to 170 and then wirlpool my hops. Since the lacto is done at that point no worry on keeping IBUs low, so I would toss about 3 ounces of mittelfruh in and wirlpool it for about 30 min at 170.

Pitch big with the 1056/05. No O2. Infact through out this brew I would be purging with co2. I would sour in the kettle for that reason, it eliminates one transfer (less o2 exposure). The nasty bugs that may be present are kept in check by eliminating o2.

Edit: Caveat, I haven't made a Berliner per se, but I make sours using a somewhat similar process. Im pitching brett where you are pitching sac. I no longer use hops because that low of an amount simply doesn't show through all the lactic and brett, but in a Berliner you'll pick them up so I would hop bigger and in the wirlpool.

Hmm, think the fact that it's only 3 gallons of really low gravity will help reduce the need for a starter? Or would jumping in today without one be pointless?