[BrodyR]

That's what I was kind of hinting at. I would mash, boil with no hops, chill to 100 and put it in the fermentor, pitch lacto, let it sit, then pitch 05, then dry hop when it's done.

Would you do another short boil after lacto? Guessing killing the lacto would allow us to aerate before pitching S-05 without any ill effects

[klickitat jim]

That's what I was kind of hinting at. I would mash, boil with no hops, chill to 100 and put it in the fermentor, pitch lacto, let it sit, then pitch 05, then dry hop when it's done.

Would you do another short boil after lacto? Guessing killing the lacto would allow us to aerate before pitching S-05 without any ill effects

Nope, I would just pitch plenty of sac yeast. A full packet of properly hydrated 05 ought to be plenty for 3.5 gallons of non oxygenated wort. The lacto won't die but it will peter out. It prefers the simplest of sugars. Its not like Brett that will eat your shoe laces if you give it a chance.

[ynotbrusum]

In terms of preference on stopping the lacto, I do bump it up to a full boil for a minute or so to shut down the lacto when my desired pH is reached, then chill down to ale fermentation temp and pitch the sacc - I blanket with CO2 during the kettle souring and make a big lacto starter to get the wort below 4.5 while the lacto does its job - and hit it with lactic acid, if necessary to get down there to keep the bacteria that I don't want in there out of there.  I also use plastic wrap on the surface of the wort and around the kettle lid while souring in the kettle.  I draw off pH samples every few hours after 16 hours and my last one was down to 2.9 after 16 hours, sour I went straight to boil at that point on that one.

[brulosopher]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Lately, I've been wondering if DMS is an issue at all, at least on the homebrew scale

I don't think Berliner Weisse is all that difficult, your plan seems sound to me!

[BrodyR]

We proceeded ahead last night, not an ideal brewday but excited to see how it turned out:

Water ended up being a bit of an unknown - I meant to bring some of my filtered tap water but forgot so we brewed with 75% distilled, 25% straight out of the tap.

We ended up doing a 20m boil.

We racked from the kettle to a 3 gallon carboy to minimize head space so it will be interesting to see if we have any oxygen related problems.

I forgot to save some distilled water for pH meter calibration so used tap between the wort and calibration solution so that was not ideal. But it looks like we got it to around 4.5 or 4.6 with 88% lactic acid before pitching. 

My buddy picked up a heating belt and some mylar to keep the temperature. We cooled to 103f, pitched the lacto, and wrapped it up. It was up to 115f this morning so he unplugged the belt and ordered a temperature controller.

All in all though I forgot how easy, quick, and refreshing 3 gallon BIAB batches are! Perfect for a work night.

[BrodyR]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Lately, I've been wondering if DMS is an issue at all, at least on the homebrew scale

I don't think Berliner Weisse is all that difficult, your plan seems sound to me!

I would love it if an exbeeriment proved I don't need to boil Pilsner malt for 90m haha.

[jeffy]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Lately, I've been wondering if DMS is an issue at all, at least on the homebrew scale

I don't think Berliner Weisse is all that difficult, your plan seems sound to me!

I would love it if an exbeeriment proved I don't need to boil Pilsner malt for 90m haha.

I use a lot of Pilsner malt and usually boil for 60 minutes with no off flavors.  So there!

[ynotbrusum]

I would suggest not covering a typical Pilsner batch while it is in the chilling process - leave the lid off or mostly uncovered - I have a clean screen that I place over the kettle while chilling to allow the SMM/DMS to escape out (if it is forming at all).

[erockrph]

I would suggest not covering a typical Pilsner batch while it is in the chilling process - leave the lid off or mostly uncovered - I have a clean screen that I place over the kettle while chilling to allow the SMM/DMS to escape out (if it is forming at all).

I have used extended hop stands on Pilsners quite a few times with a covered kettle, and I have yet to notice any DMS.

[ynotbrusum]

I would suggest not covering a typical Pilsner batch while it is in the chilling process - leave the lid off or mostly uncovered - I have a clean screen that I place over the kettle while chilling to allow the SMM/DMS to escape out (if it is forming at all).

I have used extended hop stands on Pilsners quite a few times with a covered kettle, and I have yet to notice any DMS.

I took a BJCP class from an experienced teacher and he advised that the only time he encountered it in his own home brew was when he got a new counter flow chiller and he did a hop stand covered and then started his runoff to fermenter.  He said the vegetal flavor stood out distinctly.  I believe using an immersion chiller likely avoids is, as the wort is in the DMS production zone temperature range for less time.

Of course it is a single data point, so it may not be meaningful.  I just don't want to risk my 10 gallon lager batches to a creamed corn attack ,

[klickitat jim]

Honestly, what I know about DMS was told to me or I read it somewhere. About a third of my brews have a large chunk of pils in them and I have never had DMS in them. I do a 90 min boil, because I heard it or read it.  So I do what I do because I was told about it. No evidence.  But I believe it enough that im not going to stop my 90 min boil. I might push against it this fall when I make my first pils with wirlpool hops at 170 for 30, but after a 90 min boil.

I think it would be cool to do a side by side test. Two identical smash beers with 100% pils. One boiled 60 and one boled 90 (water volumes and grain bill adjusted so they are same OG) just to see. But then you'd have to do it with each maltster...

[HoosierBrew]

Honestly, what I know about DMS was told to me or I read it somewhere. About a third of my brews have a large chunk of pils in them and I have never had DMS in them. I do a 90 min boil, because I heard it or read it.  So I do what I do because I was told about it. No evidence.  But I believe it enough that im not going to stop my 90 min boil. I might push against it this fall when I make my first pils with wirlpool hops at 170 for 30, but after a 90 min boil.

Same thing I do. I've never had DMS issues, but I've always followed the 90 minute rule for pils malt. And doing this, I've been able to do hopstands with a pils base (20-25 minute-ish) with the pot covered - no DMS. And FWIW, I don't add hops until sub-180F. I'd be curious to know if the DMS would be more likely to be noticeable if I added them at flameout and then covered the pot. Maybe, maybe not. A fair amount of steam does come out before you cool to 180F. Just a thought.

[brulosopher]

DMS is not an issue in sours so no long boil is necessary.

Lately, I've been wondering if DMS is an issue at all, at least on the homebrew scale

I don't think Berliner Weisse is all that difficult, your plan seems sound to me!

I would love it if an exbeeriment proved I don't need to boil Pilsner malt for 90m haha.

Stay tuned... stay very tuned.

[BrodyR]

Another follow up question: How long would you let the lacto cook before boiling (potentially), cooling, and pitching the Sach? We started at around 4.6 when pitched, ideally we'd want to stay around 3.5 so Sach will be ok (if I understand correctly lower than that we'll need Brett?).

I know the correct answer is take pH readings and find out (well maybe not with trying to minimise O2) but my buddy doesn't have a meter and lives a bit of a drive away. I'm debating on swinging back Friday (3 days past pitch) or more like a week on to check.

[klickitat jim]

I like to give 5335 a week. But the answer is let it work until it hits your desired ph