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Author Topic: Step mashing with declining temps  (Read 2993 times)

Offline stpug

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Re: Step mashing with declining temps
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2015, 08:16:16 am »
At the temps you're talking about- you're going to get a thin bodied beer like a Pilsner or pale ale.
I don't find pale ales or pilsners to be thin-bodied beers; now a cream ale or light lager I do.

There is a huge difference between 150, 152, 154, 156, and 158 mash temps.  The most noticeable will be the body of the beer.  The second will be efficiency.  I've been to way too many breweries where their stouts have the same body as their pale ales.  The reason is they "set it and forget it" and the mash temp drops over the course of the mash.
I don't agree that there is a huge difference between 150 and 152, or 152 and 154, and so on. There will be a slight difference in final gravity but the body and sweetness of the beer should be very close to the alternative mash temp. Also, efficiency doesn't change for me if I'm mashing at 148 or 158. As long as I provide enough time for complete conversion and sparge well, then my efficiency remains stable across multiple mash temps.

You'll never really get a great porter or stout unless you can hold the mash temp +\- 1 degree. 
That's just not true. Is there an advantage to holding a mash temp perfectly stable? Maybe, but it's not much better than a ±2° mash temp. ;)

You're better off starting on the high side and dropping into your target temp than you are trying to raise the temp to target. 
This I agree with.

Higher temps conversion rates are quicker but less efficient.   If you're temps drops below the body style you're shooting for you'll also get higher alcohol but a drier beer.
Again, efficiency doesn't change across various mash temp rests if you're doing your job thoroughly and correctly, but the rates of conversion do take place quicker at higher temps.

For medium bodied or rich bodied beers raising the temp to mash out is critical to "lock in" the conversion versus continuing conversion during mash out as the temp drops- reducing body, increasing ABV, reducing residual sweetness.
Mash out is not a critical step in homebrewing as we have many other ways to skin this cat. As a single example, continuous spargers can drain into a direct-fired BK and be maintaining a BK at 200°+ for the duration of their sparge and eliminate the mash out of they want.
Your mileage may vary- you can do anything you want.  Mash temp won't make or break your beer.  It's still beer.  But....

A lot is technique and equipment.   I understand if home brewers can't keep their mash temps within 2 degrees variant- but it doesn't mean you don't try and you'd better understand what it's going to do to your beers.
Agreed. If a homebrewer can devise a way that's worth the effort to maintain an extremely stable mash temp then it's another variable they can really play with.

At our brewery we see a distinct difference in the body and texture of the beers most notably 150 and under, 152-154, and 156 and up. 
Obviously there are ingredients whose primary purpose is to affect body and texture. These ingredients can be used at any mash temperature, thus a beer mashed at 148 could have a similar body to a beer mashed at 160 depending on the grist that was used. Mash temp in only a single variable of a wide array of variables involved in brewing.

I know a lot of home brewers who mash at 152 exclusively.  Fine.  It's still beer in the end.  But as a craft if you want to brew the best beers you can to style- mash temp is important.
Mash temp is, of course, important and a variable the brewer uses to make some adjustments to their beer, but I think there are several variables that are equally (or more) important.

As mentioned, I've been to a lot of breweries where ALL their beers have the same body feel ranging from pale ale to stout.  Stable mash temp is the number one reason.
This may be true, but the mash temp is only one possible reason for that.

Adjuncts and body filler grains help with the body and mouthfeel but the science in the end dictates.  Starch conversion at alpha or beta temps produce different results.
Alpha/beta DO produce different results which is why nearly everyone mashes at a range that mixes the two enzymes activity. If we truly wanted utmost, individual control of alpha and beta, then we'd do a step mash starting in the 130s and finishing in the 160s.

Lower mash temps- increased conversion, less residual sweetness, a drier mouthfeel, higher ABV, thinner body.
Higher mash temps- lower conversion, more residual sugars, lower ABV.
Again, mash temp doesn't dictate conversion efficiency. It also doesn't affect residual sweetness to any great extent. Mouthfeel/body, and ABV are affected to a noticeable level though.

You would never suggest brewing every beer to one mash temp for a reason.

People don't brew pilsners at 158 and people don't brew stouts at 149.  You can if you want, it's all about the pallet.
I would brew a low ABV pilsner using a high attenuating yeast strain at about 158, and I would brew a Russian Imperial Stout at about 149, so I guess that "people" do actually do that.

Lagunitas has a distinctly richer mouthfeel and residual sweetness than compared to a Pilsner.  If they brewed it at 149 it wouldn't be the same beer.
Lagunitas has developed a certain "house nuance" that their drinkers like (i.e. sweet and hoppy beers). For them to brew a standard english brown porter or czech style pilsner would be to miss out on some sales. That's why I can walk across the street to Petaluma Hills and get a stylistically correct beer.

We've brewed over 70 different beers this year alone and I would never consider brewing them all at the same mash temp.  I can measure the result of the temp dropping even 2 degrees for a prolonged period when we see an increase in efficiency- I know we won't get the same mouthfeel or residual sweetness in the final product.
I also rarely brew at the same mash temp. My mash profile changes quite often too. Again, it's a variable that I can use to adjust my beer one way or another. It rarely makes or breaks a beer though.

You can see for yourself if you use Beersmith by changing the mash profile- check out the ABV with each temp profile- it's different.  So will the ensuing mouthfeel (unconverted starches) and residual sweetness (long chain un fermented sugars).
Those are all estimations on Beersmiths part, and is almost never accurate. You need to learn the strain of yeast you're using in order to have a good estimation of where your FG will land (and, thus, your ABV).

There's a lot of moving parts into making good beer at any scale- mash temp is another important tool in the toolbox.
Agreed.

I agree the differences may be minute- but there are differences in mash temp.
Agreed (somewhat). The difference ARE minute, and there are differences created in the final beer from the mash temp.

Jc McDowell
Bandit Brewing Co
Darby, Mt
While I can measure it and I know what it means to the final brew, I admit it is easier to detect the differences by taste from 152 to 156. Same down from 154 to 150 (again plus or minus a degree of error).
The differences are subtle, to be sure. 

But regardless, drifting 4 (or more) degrees during 60-90 minutes of the mash does make a difference in your beer in multiple ways.
Agreed. Namely, attenuation, but depending on the grist and yeast strain used this may not prove to be overly apparent (pun intended). :D

...at least that's my take on it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 09:34:36 am by stpug »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Step mashing with declining temps
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 11:59:57 am »
I don't think anyone would advocate that you just pour some hot water in your mash tun, stir in your grain, then call it a day without ever measuring a temperature. You need to know and control your strike temps, but everything else you can dial in based on your own system. Mash temp is important, but there are many other factors that also decide body and attenuation in a finished beer.

And frankly, if you can't taste the difference between 2 beers, then there's no difference as far as I'm concerned, regardless of what the numbers say.

In the end, each brewer needs to understand his or her own system. If you want more body, then boost your mash temps by a few degrees, hold it for a shorter time, use a less attenuative yeast, etc. If your mash temp drops a few degrees during the mash, then maybe you need to mash your stout a few degrees higher, or bump up the flaked barley, or whatever. Easy enough.

FWIW, I mash barleywines at 147 for 2 hours, but they still end up with a body like a sumo wrestler.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline denny

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Re: Step mashing with declining temps
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2015, 12:27:35 pm »
I don't think anyone would advocate that you just pour some hot water in your mash tun, stir in your grain, then call it a day without ever measuring a temperature. You need to know and control your strike temps, but everything else you can dial in based on your own system. Mash temp is important, but there are many other factors that also decide body and attenuation in a finished beer.

And frankly, if you can't taste the difference between 2 beers, then there's no difference as far as I'm concerned, regardless of what the numbers say.

In the end, each brewer needs to understand his or her own system. If you want more body, then boost your mash temps by a few degrees, hold it for a shorter time, use a less attenuative yeast, etc. If your mash temp drops a few degrees during the mash, then maybe you need to mash your stout a few degrees higher, or bump up the flaked barley, or whatever. Easy enough.

FWIW, I mash barleywines at 147 for 2 hours, but they still end up with a body like a sumo wrestler.

Yep!  And your BW experience just shows that grist composition is the main factor.
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