Author Topic: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer  (Read 1661 times)

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19938
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2015, 04:20:09 PM »
We also have a pretty comprehensive list in Experimental Homebrewing.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2015, 04:36:16 PM »
We also have a pretty comprehensive list in Experimental Homebrewing.
"Get your hands on flavoring extracts", "artificial apricot flavor will help". Tssk!
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19938
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2015, 05:36:17 PM »
We also have a pretty comprehensive list in Experimental Homebrewing.
"Get your hands on flavoring extracts", "artificial apricot flavor will help". Tssk!

Look at pg. 163-168.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2015, 05:38:34 PM »
Yes, that's where the quotes come from. Blame Drew?
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19938
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2015, 05:39:12 PM »
Yes, that's where the quotes come from. Blame Drew?

Of course!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline mchrispen

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
    • Accidentalis Brewing Blog
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2015, 11:52:10 PM »
Nobody has mentioned tannin levels in a discussion about fruit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Chrispen
Sometime Austin Zealot
Blogging from the garage @ accidentalis.com
>> Bru'n Water Spreadsheet Walkthroughs<<
>> Bru'n Water Subscriber Version 5.3 Spreadsheet Walkthrough <<

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2015, 03:54:00 AM »
Nobody has mentioned tannin levels in a discussion about fruit?
I think they certainly help add some balance, especially in a sour. But have you noticed a correlation between tannins and flavor in beer?
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline unclebrazzie

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 318
  • Edegem - Belgium
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 07:31:34 AM »
I agree, and there is more: this simple combination makes him the leading contender for the 2015 Voldermort Award: a brilliant, deeply disturbing idea from a brilliant, deeply disturbed mind.

Just now we all know how to pronounce the name of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (--hint: it's a silent -t--), now JayKay has to start giving us pointers on how to spell He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Spelled's name.

In an attempt to re-rail this trainwreck: assuming the original comment about fruit flavours "binding" to sugars actually meant "something about flavours, sugar and acid" renders it more meaningful.

Regarding raspberries vs strawberries: even if their acid and sugar contents are comparable (*), their flavour profile obviously isn't. Raspberries have a more pronounced flavour than strawberries, which is why you can eat a bowl of the latter, but seldom eat more than a handful of the former. Also: what reverseapachemaster said.

*) "acid content" vs "acid composition". Which acids are we talking about, and how does strawbery's acid composition differ from rasp's?

A potentially interesting tangent is how artificial fruit flavours try to mimic the natural flavours. Strawberry flavour tends to not taste like strawberries at all. Rasp's even less so, possibly because the acidity is all gone from the flavour.

The Guacamolambic challenge has been accepted. Expect more news in a year or two :)
All truth is fiction.
--Don Quichote

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2015, 08:24:32 AM »
The Guacamolambic challenge has been accepted. Expect more news in a year or two :)
@klickitatjim. See what you have done? For the next two years there will be this sickly green-yellow-brownish sour concoction with oily mouthfeel popping up in my worst nightmares. And then I won't even have tasted the vileness.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2015, 08:28:20 AM »

In an attempt to re-rail this trainwreck: assuming the original comment about fruit flavours "binding" to sugars actually meant "something about flavours, sugar and acid" renders it more meaningful.

Regarding raspberries vs strawberries: even if their acid and sugar contents are comparable (*), their flavour profile obviously isn't. Raspberries have a more pronounced flavour than strawberries, which is why you can eat a bowl of the latter, but seldom eat more than a handful of the former. Also: what reverseapachemaster said.

*) "acid content" vs "acid composition". Which acids are we talking about, and how does strawbery's acid composition differ from rasp's?

A potentially interesting tangent is how artificial fruit flavours try to mimic the natural flavours. Strawberry flavour tends to not taste like strawberries at all. Rasp's even less so, possibly because the acidity is all gone from the flavour.


You are still saying not much more than that raspberries are more flavorful than strawberries.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline mchrispen

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
    • Accidentalis Brewing Blog
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2015, 01:34:23 PM »

Nobody has mentioned tannin levels in a discussion about fruit?
I think they certainly help add some balance, especially in a sour. But have you noticed a correlation between tannins and flavor in beer?

I think tannins certainly contribute flavor and structure, especially with berries. Maybe tannins affect the quality of the fruit flavor? The few fruit beers is have done, I greatly preferred those on whole fruit over juice concentrates. I know in my meads, usually a little tannin helps greatly to enhance the overall quality.
Matt Chrispen
Sometime Austin Zealot
Blogging from the garage @ accidentalis.com
>> Bru'n Water Spreadsheet Walkthroughs<<
>> Bru'n Water Subscriber Version 5.3 Spreadsheet Walkthrough <<

Offline rebuiltcellars

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2015, 11:46:21 AM »
So the best explanation so far why strawberries and raspberries are different in beer is because their acids are different. Well, I guess it's something...
I don't think so.  Both have primarily citric acid, which does tend to get reduced during fermentation.  Cherries and apples have mostly malic acid, which is only reduced by a small amount.  Tartaric acid (grapes) is reduced even less by the fermentation chemistry, but grapes experience a drastic flavor change when fermented.
I don't know the answer to your question, but my experience tells me that while both acid and sugar can be important factors in flavor enhancement, they are not at the key you are looking for.  Some flavors (like raspberry and cherry) are just more stable.
A clever/funny quote goes here.

Primary: Beer, wine or empty
Secondary: We don't need no stinking secondary
Bottled/Kegged: Beer, wine or empty

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3123
  • Barre, Ma
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2015, 12:16:11 PM »

Nobody has mentioned tannin levels in a discussion about fruit?
I think they certainly help add some balance, especially in a sour. But have you noticed a correlation between tannins and flavor in beer?

I think tannins certainly contribute flavor and structure, especially with berries. Maybe tannins affect the quality of the fruit flavor? The few fruit beers is have done, I greatly preferred those on whole fruit over juice concentrates. I know in my meads, usually a little tannin helps greatly to enhance the overall quality.
This is interesting because we occasionally add a little tea to the must of some of our melomels. I always thought it was to balance sweetness without adding more acidity but maybe it does more.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 12:19:57 PM »
This is interesting because we occasionally add a little tea to the must of some of our melomels. I always thought it was to balance sweetness without adding more acidity but maybe it does more.

Tea definitely has a lot of tannin. I add wine tannin to hard cider to give it more complexity.
Jon H.

Offline mchrispen

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
    • Accidentalis Brewing Blog
Re: the flavor of fruit in fruit beer
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2015, 03:04:52 PM »
http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/food/6B.pdf

That link is completely about wine, not beer, but a great comparative list of compounds in grape juice before and after fermentation. This is where I think there is more than a simple sweet/acid vector in adding fruit to beer. There can be significant transfer of organic acids (more or less directly) as well as phenols. In particular, anthocyanins are bound to a sugar, but I am not sure of which sugar molecule or if the bond is cleaved in fermentation and the sugar used as a carbon source.

As to the flavor transfers, I suspect that raspberries water/sugar ratio is far less than strawberries, meaning far more strawberries needed per 5 gallons and probably some additional sugars to prevent dilution. I would also speculate that strawberry flavors and aromas are more volatile. I have had some strawberry melo's that were horribly astringent and unpleasant from the bulk of the seeds. All speculation of course.
Matt Chrispen
Sometime Austin Zealot
Blogging from the garage @ accidentalis.com
>> Bru'n Water Spreadsheet Walkthroughs<<
>> Bru'n Water Subscriber Version 5.3 Spreadsheet Walkthrough <<