[brulosopher]

Anyway, great timing on your article Marshall. We've got a Pils study group going right now and boil time is one of the issues we've been discussing.

Ohhh, I look forward to reading about the outcomes of this study group!

[denny]

I understand what you are saying Denny, but I think it would be easier for me to see or expect no noticeable changes if the time difference was a mere 30 minutes (standard 60 minutes vs 90 minutes.) I still think a 60 minute difference in boil time should produce significantly different beers from a scientific point of view, not conventional wisdom. An egg boiled for 12 minutes and an egg boiled for 36 minutes are both still hard boiled, but will differences be noted? Applying a boil to something for 30 minutes or 90 should yield different results whether cooking or brewing. I am not saying that DMS will be the difference, but hop utilization and isomerization should at least be different between them, no? The results showed slight differences in color, I simply think more differences would have been seen. I am glad that was not the case, and I may start some shorter boils on some of my brew days to see for myself. I think I'm just rambling at this point. I don't have the personal experience to back any of this up; it just seems logical that "x" minutes of boiling would be different than 3x "x" minutes. And now back to your regularly scheduled programming

I'm not sure boiling eggs and making beer equalte to each other....

[4swan]

I've been doing 60 minute boils with the lid mostly on the pot for about 10 years and never noticed DMS. 

[erockrph]

Applying a boil to something for 30 minutes or 90 should yield different results whether cooking or brewing. I am not saying that DMS will be the difference, but hop utilization and isomerization should at least be different between them, no? The results showed slight differences in color, I simply think more differences would have been seen.

In this experiment, the hops were boiled for the same length of time in each, so no significant differences should be noted.

Unless I'm specifically looking for a character that is imparted through a lengthy boil (concentrating a barleywine wort, for example), I'm going to start using shortened boils and see what happens.

[69franx]

I understand what you are saying Denny, but I think it would be easier for me to see or expect no noticeable changes if the time difference was a mere 30 minutes (standard 60 minutes vs 90 minutes.) I still think a 60 minute difference in boil time should produce significantly different beers from a scientific point of view, not conventional wisdom. An egg boiled for 12 minutes and an egg boiled for 36 minutes are both still hard boiled, but will differences be noted? Applying a boil to something for 30 minutes or 90 should yield different results whether cooking or brewing. I am not saying that DMS will be the difference, but hop utilization and isomerization should at least be different between them, no? The results showed slight differences in color, I simply think more differences would have been seen. I am glad that was not the case, and I may start some shorter boils on some of my brew days to see for myself. I think I'm just rambling at this point. I don't have the personal experience to back any of this up; it just seems logical that "x" minutes of boiling would be different than 3x "x" minutes. And now back to your regularly scheduled programming

I'm not sure boiling eggs and making beer equalte to each other....

 

[beersk]

I've been doing 60 minute boils with the lid mostly on the pot for about 10 years and never noticed DMS. 

Well, either you're lucky or have a high threshold for DMS.

[denny]

I've been doing 60 minute boils with the lid mostly on the pot for about 10 years and never noticed DMS. 

Well, either you're lucky or have a high threshold for DMS.

3rd possibility...with today's malts, those just don't matter any more.

[dmtaylor]

I've been doing 60 minute boils with the lid mostly on the pot for about 10 years and never noticed DMS.

Try boiling with the lid off sometime and see if the quality of your beer improves.

[dmtaylor]

3rd possibility...with today's malts, those just don't matter any more.

Just to clarify, not argue: DMS is certainly still possible!  I'm just left wondering which variable or two cause it nowadays.  The reason I conclude that it's most likely a lid thing (actually condensation / failure to boil off the precursor) is because a friend of mine was struggling for years with DMS problems.  I always figured, and told him, that it was because his keggle was bigger than he needed and had a small curved opening on top that allowed vapors to condense and fall back into the beer.  He's since turned up the heat and boils harder, I think still on the same equipment, and I don't notice the problem anymore.

[Biran]

These results are very interesting, but I'm too chicken to try.  I don't get to brew as often as I would like, so I fear that I'll have a bad batch and not be able to brew for another month.

[dmtaylor]

These results are very interesting, but I'm too chicken to try.  I don't get to brew as often as I would like, so I fear that I'll have a bad batch and not be able to brew for another month.

If you could save more than 60-90 minutes on every brew day from now until kingdom come, would you be able to brew more often and thus increase your overall happiness level?  Here's how:

1) Cut your batch size in half.  This reduces time to get to boil by perhaps 10-15 minutes, and perhaps sparge time by a similar amount.

2) Only mash 40 minutes.  Try it!  Turns out fine, I promise, I've been doing it for years.  This reduces mash time by at least 20 minutes.

3) Only boil 45 minutes.  Save at least 15 minutes.

4) Love to sparge?  Say goodbye to the sparge.  Brew In A Bag (BIAB).  Saves at least 15 minutes, and much more time if you're currently a fly sparger, maybe a whole hour?!  Plus it's really the best way to mash if you're doing small batches anyway per recommendation #1.

And then on bottling day, it will only take half the time to bottle.  Or get smaller kegs -- yes, they exist.

Any one or all of the above variables can be tweaked to allow you to experiment more, brew more often, and increase your total happiness level.  IF you're anything like me.  Many people are.  Many are not.  Suit yourself. 

[4swan]

I've been doing 60 minute boils with the lid mostly on the pot for about 10 years and never noticed DMS. 

Well, either you're lucky or have a high threshold for DMS.

Could be lucky, but I expect that it is modern malts and/or I have enough water vapor escape to drive it off.  A couple of months ago I took a Dortmunder to my homebrew club to specifically test for DMS,  only one person thought they tasted DMS, but only after it warmed up.  I have to say for a while I wondered if my wife and I couldn't taste DMS.
I originally started with the lid mostly on, because I once had a bird poop on a porterhouse steak I was taking to the grill and  I didn't want any stuff falling into my beer.  At the time I didn't notice any quality loss in my beers and I noticed that I saved propane.  Maybe I should try a more scientific experiment for myself, one pilsner beer with the lid off and another with my normal process to see if it matters.

[dmtaylor]

Maybe I should try a more scientific experiment for myself, one pilsner beer with the lid off and another with my normal process to see if it matters.

Yes!  Do it.  And share the results, please! 

[denny]

These results are very interesting, but I'm too chicken to try.  I don't get to brew as often as I would like, so I fear that I'll have a bad batch and not be able to brew for another month.

Bit it's been proven to not happen.  What have you got to lose?

[dmtaylor]

These results are very interesting, but I'm too chicken to try.  I don't get to brew as often as I would like, so I fear that I'll have a bad batch and not be able to brew for another month.

Bit it's been proven to not happen.  What have you got to lose?

My guess is "5 gallons".

Fortunately, most DMS beers are still drinkable, IMHO.