[klickitat jim]

Great review and analysis, Amanda.  That beer was brewed mid February. After bottle conditioned it sat in a chest at 39º till I boxed it up. Same with the dunkel I sent. Its reaching its best by for sure. Thats my 3rd attemot, tweaking along the way. It won 1st place at Bend Oregon's Springfling. Probably because Randy didnt enter anything lol.

Malt bill was 9lbs Best Pils and 2 lbs Vienna, which I later learned to be Gambrinus. A light went off above my head when I learned that, regarding that honey note. Hopping was 1/2 oz of US Magnum at 60 in a 90 min biil. Thats it.  Wyeast Munich 2308 at 50º till a stepped up d rest.

Helles is up next on my calendar. I'm going to drop the OG from 1.058ish to 1.050. 9.5 lbs Best Pils 1.5lbs Best Vienna. Im going to mash at 145 for 120, rather than 150 for 60. 60 minute boil thanks to Marshall, that might drop the color down where it should be. Hops this time will be an ounce of Mittelfruh at 60 and an ounce at 10. Going to pitch two 1L starters at high krausen and get it really rocking,  hopefully. Plus I've learned a lot about water and pH since February so im amped to get after it.

Glad you enjoyed it. Im looking forward to continuing my journey toward my perfect Helles. The Dunkel needs help too. Too sweet in my opinion. I'll see what you think.

Edit: regarding the unexpected buzz, its about 5.5% so I dont know. But it was brewed in Washington, so who knows? Contact high?

[AmandaK]

Great review and analysis, Amanda.  That beer was brewed mid February. After bottle conditioned it sat in a chest at 39º till I boxed it up. Same with the dunkel I sent. Its reaching its best by for sure. Thats my 3rd attemot, tweaking along the way. It won 1st place at Bend Oregon's Springfling. Probably because Randy didnt enter anything lol.

Malt bill was 9lbs Best Pils and 2 lbs Vienna, which I later learned to be Gambrinus. A light went off above my head when I learned that, regarding that honey note. Hopping was 1/2 oz of US Magnum at 60 in a 90 min biil. Thats it.  Wyeast Munich 2308 at 50º till a stepped up d rest.

Helles is up next on my calendar. I'm going to drop the OG from 1.058ish to 1.050. 9.5 lbs Best Pils 1.5lbs Best Vienna. Im going to mash at 145 for 120, rather than 150 for 60. 60 minute boil thanks to Marshall, that might drop the color down where it should be. Hops this time will be an ounce of Mittelfruh at 60 and an ounce at 10. Going to pitch two 1L starters at high krausen and get it really rocking,  hopefully. Plus I've learned a lot about water and pH since February so im amped to get after it.

Glad you enjoyed it. Im looking forward to continuing my journey toward my perfect Helles. The Dunkel needs help too. Too sweet in my opinion. I'll see what you think.

Edit: regarding the unexpected buzz, its about 5.5% so I dont know. But it was brewed in Washington, so who knows? Contact high?

Interesting. I'm almost always hesitant to point to a flavor or aroma and point out how it was formed, but it seems like my training/practice has paid off a bit here. At NHC this past year, I got a lot of experience in malt oxidation which was spurred on by judging the light lager category. Nathan Smith and I had this Dortmunder Export that was light gold in color, but was just a wallop of toffee and honey. It was crazy. During that mini-BOS, Bob Hall and I discussed malt oxidation in what was probably entirely too much detail for normal people. Talking with Bob led to him dragging a New Belgium brewer over and talking with him about types of oxidation that people don't really know about. And when we were leaving, I had the opportunity to ask John Mallett about it. Problem is that oxidation of paler malts can taste a lot like what higher/longer kilned malts taste like. :/

So it looks like you went from 1.058 to 1.016 with this one? It seems like a good idea to start lower and finish lower with this one - 1.050 OG like you say and then aim for 1.010 or 1.011. I have had some issue in the past with WY2308 finishing a bit on the sweeter side, but I've had good luck pitching a crap ton of it and warming it up as fermentation slows (similar to Marshall's fast lager ferment). The finish on that beer did seem a bit, I don't want to say flabby, but it wasn't crisp. I'm sure you'll nail that down now that you know more about water/pH.

I'll see if I can find time to kick back a couple tonight. The dunkel is next up on my list.

[klickitat jim]

Awesome. Trouble with the honey note is that it was there from day one. I think it's from Gambrinus' vienna, which might have had some Gambrinus honey malt in it. But the beer is also getting old so I wouldn't doubt the oxydation is creeping in and really adding to that honey thing.

[ynotbrusum]

Interesting to hear about oxidation relative to malt profile in a light lager.  I have a bottle of NG Pils that I brewed (12-13-14) for comps this past spring that I squirreled away in my fridge to see how it holds up/oxidizes/just plain fades with time.  I will have to crack that one soon with my perception on high alert to see what it has done over the last year. Grapy oxidation is a new one to me.

[AmandaK]

Interesting to hear about oxidation relative to malt profile in a light lager.  I have a bottle of NG Pils that I brewed (12-13-14) for comps this past spring that I squirreled away in my fridge to see how it holds up/oxidizes/just plain fades with time.  I will have to crack that one soon with my perception on high alert to see what it has done over the last year. Grapy oxidation is a new one to me.

I don't know what that was from, it may not be from oxidation. Maybe it's how I perceive Gambrinus Vienna! 

[toby]

Interesting to hear about oxidation relative to malt profile in a light lager.  I have a bottle of NG Pils that I brewed (12-13-14) for comps this past spring that I squirreled away in my fridge to see how it holds up/oxidizes/just plain fades with time.  I will have to crack that one soon with my perception on high alert to see what it has done over the last year. Grapy oxidation is a new one to me.

Dark fruit esters and oxidation effects are generally more common in darker beers.  The 'dark fruit' that comes across in a lot of old ales and scotch ales and to some extent stouts and quads is a function of oxidation (although yeast profile plays a part in some of those esters also as well as dark candi sugar).  Honey can be from the type of malt, or oxidation in some medium crystal malts.

[morticaixavier]

Interesting to hear about oxidation relative to malt profile in a light lager.  I have a bottle of NG Pils that I brewed (12-13-14) for comps this past spring that I squirreled away in my fridge to see how it holds up/oxidizes/just plain fades with time.  I will have to crack that one soon with my perception on high alert to see what it has done over the last year. Grapy oxidation is a new one to me.

I don't know what that was from, it may not be from oxidation. Maybe it's how I perceive Gambrinus Vienna! 

I often get a grapy note from pils malt. reminds me of white grapejuice. Or maybe the hint of grape you taste in 'no sugar added' sodapop that's sweetened with white grape juice.

[AmandaK]

Interesting to hear about oxidation relative to malt profile in a light lager.  I have a bottle of NG Pils that I brewed (12-13-14) for comps this past spring that I squirreled away in my fridge to see how it holds up/oxidizes/just plain fades with time.  I will have to crack that one soon with my perception on high alert to see what it has done over the last year. Grapy oxidation is a new one to me.

I don't know what that was from, it may not be from oxidation. Maybe it's how I perceive Gambrinus Vienna! 

I often get a grapy note from pils malt. reminds me of white grapejuice. Or maybe the hint of grape you taste in 'no sugar added' sodapop that's sweetened with white grape juice.

You know, I do remember that conversation in the famous "That German Lager Flavor" thread. I'll keep an eye on that with my next few all-Pils beers. I have plans for a Belgian Golden Strong (Dingemanns Pils) and more German Pilsners (Best Pils).

[klickitat jim]

Is that what is referred to as vinous (sp?)

[toby]

Yes, it's one aspect of vinous.  "Port" is another oxidation quality in that vein.

[pete b]

Nice exchange here with Jim and Amanda, nice chance to learn something. Definitely a class move by Amanda to PM Jim the review first and for Jim to be willing to discuss the constructive feedback. You are both total grown ups!

[jeffy]

I get a honey flavor from certain Pilsner malts when underattenuated.  It doesn't necessarily have to come from oxidation.

[erockrph]

Yes, it's one aspect of vinous.  "Port" is another oxidation quality in that vein.

And the Muscat/Sauvignon Blanc note common in some NZ hops is yet another possible application of the term "vinous" in brewing.

[klickitat jim]

Nice exchange here with Jim and Amanda, nice chance to learn something. Definitely a class move by Amanda to PM Jim the review first and for Jim to be willing to discuss the constructive feedback. You are both total grown ups!

Well thanks. Thats the whole point of these swaps. Just like we were sitting together having a beer, cuz one day we will be. Also its ok if every beer isnt pop your eyes out amazing. That Helles won a ribbon, but I know it has a long way ti go till im happy with it. If I cant take criticism and suggestions how will I ever get it there?

But I agree with you, for a forum this one is grown up.

[HoosierBrew]

Yes, it's one aspect of vinous.  "Port" is another oxidation quality in that vein.

And the Muscat/Sauvignon Blanc note common in some NZ hops is yet another possible application of the term "vinous" in brewing.

Makes me think of the 'vinous' character of WY2565 Kolsch,too. Good stuff.