[Joe Sr.]

Denny - I'm interested to see how your shake n' bake starter works out for you.  You and Mark have had a lively back and forth.

We certainly have!  Even when I've disagreed with him based on my experience, I've had a lot of respect for his knowledge.  I decided that the open minded thing to do was to give it a try.  I regret that I didn't have time to do this as a real experiment, with a split batch of wort and starters made both ways.  But if this works (and I expect it to), a real experiment is in the offing.

Keep us updated.  And, I gotta say, I haven't used my stir plates on the last three batches.  Maybe the last five. 
But I still didn't pitch at high kraeusen.  Just decanted and pitched the slurry. 

Of course, over time I've made far more batches without than with a stir plate.

[Village Taphouse]

Good stuff, guys.  Thanks for the replies.  I should add that my O2 is through a stone from an oxygen canister and I do have a stirplate for my starters.  I guess I'm thinking that some people do not use pure O2 which can make a difference and they also make bigger beers which would also make a difference but I also wonder if people just pitch "a metric buttload of yeast" because years of homebrewing doctrine has suggested that we must all pitch "a metric buttload of yeast".  I was with a new(er) brewer not long ago who lives a few streets from me.  He was making a 5% porter and had 3 Wyeast packs sitting on the table in the garage.  He said he didn't have time to make a starter so he was pitching more yeast.  That's $21 of yeast where one pack would probably have been okay as long as it was fresh and active and there was some O2 in solution.

Re: pitching rate...I am a believer in the Dr. Clayton Cone theory of overpitching leading to increased esters.  I know other people disagree, but I've found it to be true.  For the last several months I've been pitching slurries and certainly overpitching.  I noticed an increase in esters in my beer.  The impetus behind this trial was to see if I noticed a difference when I was pitching so much less yeast.  Although I'm not doing a split batch trial, I'm brewing a beer I've brewed dozens of times, so it will be interesting to see how it stacks up.

I also remember a podcast (Jamil and Tasty McDole or something?) saying that when you the pitch the proper amount of yeast or even a little less, the yeast go through a growth phase that actually contributes a flavor that beer drinkers find pleasing.  Overpitching pushes the yeast past that point and they don't produce that flavor.  That may be a load of huey but it came from people I place on a higher level so I'm hoping there is some truth to that. 

[dzlater]

  Reading about the "shaken not stirred" method made me recall this.
When I first started using liquid yeast, I made  a quart starter in a gallon jug in the morning before I started brewing.  No stir plate I would just give it a real good shake every chance I had.
  If I remember right it was an Irish Red probably around 1.050.That beer was the fastest starting most vigorous ferment I have ever had. I remember looking at about an hour or so after I pitched and the airlock was already bubbling.
     Then I read about cell counts and stir plates and pitcing rate calculators.
And even though it worked well for me,I started to do things the "right" way.
 At the time I didn't have the confidance in my brewing to trust my own methods.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

  Reading about the "shaken not stirred" method made me recall this.
When I first started using liquid yeast, I made  a quart starter in a gallon jug in the morning before I started brewing.  No stir plate I would just give it a real good shake every chance I had.
  If I remember right it was an Irish Red probably around 1.050.That beer was the fastest starting most vigorous ferment I have ever had. I remember looking at about an hour or so after I pitched and the airlock was already bubbling.
     Then I read about cell counts and stir plates and pitcing rate calculators.
And even though it worked well for me,I started to do things the "right" way.
 At the time I didn't have the confidance in my brewing to trust my own methods.

We've all been there man. I know what bad beer is, and know when there are flaws, and when there are not.

Brewing is science and still not absolute. More and more old philosophies are being thrown out for new practices. That's really cool and exciting and I'm happy to be a part of it.  We should never be so convicted that we fear or reject something without trying it for ourselves....it's like discovering a whole new world.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Joe Sr.]

Brewing is science

Brewing is art.  Just like cooking.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Brewing is science

Brewing is art.  Just like cooking.

Couldn't agree more. Just a lot of science in there that can make some feel like there's just one absolute path....not the case.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[denny]

I also remember a podcast (Jamil and Tasty McDole or something?) saying that when you the pitch the proper amount of yeast or even a little less, the yeast go through a growth phase that actually contributes a flavor that beer drinkers find pleasing.  Overpitching pushes the yeast past that point and they don't produce that flavor.  That may be a load of huey but it came from people I place on a higher level so I'm hoping there is some truth to that.

Dr. Cone's theory is kinda the opposite.  He says that the same enzyme, acetyl co-A, is used for both yeast growth and ester production.  If it's doing one, it's not doing the other.  So, by pitching less yeast (NOT underpitching) you are actually producing fewer esters.

[dilluh98]

I'd like to see more data on the O2 requirements for a given yeast. I know Mark has mentioned the 4 categories for yeast O2 requirements but I’ve never seen a list that matches these categories to specific yeast strains.

I use the “shaken, not stirred” method for every starter now and I’ll typically give the cooled wort some jiggling/shaking for a while before pitching the yeast at high krausen. Every beer I’ve made in the OG = 1.040 - 1.060 range has turned out fine with this method. Even the times I’ve forgotten to “aerate” the wort before pitching I haven’t really noticed ill effects on moderate gravity pale ales and brown ales.

I do tend to use pure O2 through a stone on my saisons though as it seems common lore that saison yeast tend to be O2 hungry (perhaps this is huey, I don't know). Out of curiosity, I have a batch of low OG saison (~1.048) where I used the “shaken, not stirred” starter but no O2 (just shaking the cool wort before pitching) and then doing an open fermentation. Bottling that beer this weekend - we’ll see how it goes. Also really looking forward to see how the WLP585 performs compared to the 565 (thanks for that recommendation, Drew).

This is all a very round-about way of wondering: For most ale strains, if we are pitching a reasonable amount of yeast at high krausen, are there O2 requirements beyond typical splashing/shaking techniques?

[Stevie]

My only issue with the shaken not stirred method that Mark uses is the amount of starter wort going into the fermenter. I understand it's not nasty wort like that from a stir plate or constantly aerated starter, but it's still a large amount going into a 5 gallon batch.

[hopfenundmalz]

the fermenter is full of foam and I call it goo.

I call it goo too!

I know that I am getting more flavorful beer by not using O2 on my British style ales, just pump it in full open and that is enough O2. I give my big beers and lagers O2.

The British under pitch by 2/3 or 1/2 of what US breweries do, and there you have more stress on the yeast to produce more esters. The local Brewpub that uses WLP 022 Essex doubles the pitch rate to get a clean ale. I have had the standard pitch with nice esters, and the double pitch and was impressed with how clean it was in comparison.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

My only issue with the shaken not stirred method that Mark uses is the amount of starter wort going into the fermenter. I understand it's not nasty wort like that from a stir plate or constantly aerated starter, but it's still a large amount going into a 5 gallon batch.

Me too. Not saying I won't do it but does cause me to pause.

60 minute boil for my pils tomorrow vs 90 minute for first time.....yep makes me twitch but doing it anyway!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dilluh98]

I get around this by popping it in the fridge and decanting or doing the "native starter" method with wort from the batch as my batches aren't at pitching temp until later in the day or the next morning anyway. Just take a liter off the batch, cool with ice bath, pitch yeast, shake, pitch whole thing 8-10 hours later when the main wort is cool in the fermenter. Easy peasy. This method actually seems to take off faster than traditional "shaken, not stirred."

[hopfenundmalz]

Good stuff, guys.  Thanks for the replies.  I should add that my O2 is through a stone from an oxygen canister and I do have a stirplate for my starters.  I guess I'm thinking that some people do not use pure O2 which can make a difference and they also make bigger beers which would also make a difference but I also wonder if people just pitch "a metric buttload of yeast" because years of homebrewing doctrine has suggested that we must all pitch "a metric buttload of yeast".  I was with a new(er) brewer not long ago who lives a few streets from me.  He was making a 5% porter and had 3 Wyeast packs sitting on the table in the garage.  He said he didn't have time to make a starter so he was pitching more yeast.  That's $21 of yeast where one pack would probably have been okay as long as it was fresh and active and there was some O2 in solution.

Re: pitching rate...I am a believer in the Dr. Clayton Cone theory of overpitching leading to increased esters.  I know other people disagree, but I've found it to be true.  For the last several months I've been pitching slurries and certainly overpitching.  I noticed an increase in esters in my beer.  The impetus behind this trial was to see if I noticed a difference when I was pitching so much less yeast.  Although I'm not doing a split batch trial, I'm brewing a beer I've brewed dozens of times, so it will be interesting to see how it stacks up.

I think you need to know your strain and what over pitching is for that strain. See the comment I made on the Brewpub using 022 Essex.

[hopfenundmalz]

Brewing is science

Brewing is art.  Just like cooking.

It is a combination of art and science, i. e. a craft.

[Joe Sr.]

Enough of this.  I'm going to the LHBS.