Author Topic: New starter procedure trial  (Read 23911 times)

Online denny

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New starter procedure trial
« on: September 26, 2015, 06:34:11 PM »
Well, after all the times I've told S. Cerevisiae that I've tried it and didn't \care for the results, I decided it was time to give his procedure a fair trial.  Here's what happened....http://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/old-dognew-tricks
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2015, 07:01:43 PM »
That's my problem, timing high krausen. So, ive been using 2L oxygenated and shook wort, pitching the smack pack about 6pm before brew day. Brew morning, ~12 hrs later, I put it in the fridge. Then I end up decanting about 80% and pitching about 6pm after brewing two batches that brew day. That works great, but I'd be curious to know how the masters of this technique are timing it for a 1L high krausen total contents pitch.

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2015, 07:05:55 PM »
That's my problem, timing high krausen. So, ive been using 2L oxygenated and shook wort, pitching the smack pack about 6pm before brew day. Brew morning, ~12 hrs later, I put it in the fridge. Then I end up decanting about 80% and pitching about 6pm after brewing two batches that brew day. That works great, but I'd be curious to know how the masters of this technique are timing it for a 1L high krausen total contents pitch.

After discussing it with Mark, I'm not sure being exactly at high krausen makes a world of difference.  I was close and judging by the looks of things, it was close enough.  I was using a 3 month old smack pack and I wanted to be sure it had enough time.  I decided that was more important than being exactly at high krausen when I pitched.  I also decided that 1 qt. of starter wort in my beer probably wouldn't have much noticeable effect.  That part remains to be tested.
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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2015, 07:24:11 PM »
While hitting the starter exactly at high krausen is ideal, there's a bit of leeway in the process. 

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2015, 07:30:21 PM »
I also decided that 1 qt. of starter wort in my beer probably wouldn't have much noticeable effect.  That part remains to be tested.

I use Briess Light Pilsen DME.  That stuff is fairly neutral in flavor.   I usually use a percentage of dextrose and 1/4 tsp of Fermax as well.

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2015, 09:07:57 PM »
I also decided that 1 qt. of starter wort in my beer probably wouldn't have much noticeable effect.  That part remains to be tested.

I use Briess Light Pilsen DME.  That stuff is fairly neutral in flavor.   I usually use a percentage of dextrose and 1/4 tsp of Fermax as well.

Not certain of the brand but it was extra light DME.  A pinch of Wyeast nutrient as well.  3 oz. DME to a qt. of water.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2015, 10:06:17 PM »
Mark, if you had to quantify a general time frame for predicting high krausen in a shook or oxygenated 1L starter with a fresh smack pack, what would it be? Would it be different for ale vs lager?

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2015, 11:57:05 PM »
Mark, if you had to quantify a general time frame for predicting high krausen in a shook or oxygenated 1L starter with a fresh smack pack, what would it be? Would it be different for ale vs lager?

FWIW, mine was there in about 20 hours.  That was a 3 month old smack pack.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2015, 12:07:49 AM »
I think I'm in the ball park. My last starters were 6 day old 1056 that were in starters for 12 hrs before putting in the fridge. I gave them a little swirl and the wife saw it, thought they were going to explode. Then about 10 maybe 12 hrs later I removed from the fridge, decanted and pitched. Had blowoff in 12 hrs after that.

But I'm wondering if I should make my starters with 1L, morning of brew day, and pitch the whole thing that evening (12 hrs later) Maybe 2L for lagers 1L for ales.

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2015, 12:56:25 AM »
Jim, it sounds like you have the process dialed-in for your environment.  As  much as I would like say that culture X pitched into 1L of starter wort is going reach high krausen at time X, yeast behavior just cannot be quantified to that level of precision in a general way, especially when things such as water composition, wort composition, incubation time, and incubation temperature are factored into the equation.  That's why I give a window of between 12 and 18 hours after inoculation.  The best thing that one can do is what you are doing; namely, inoculating, observing, and adjusting the incubation time frame per one's observations. 

In your case, I would feel comfortable making the starter in the morning and pitching 12 hours later.  The worst case scenario is that you have to place a chilled batch of wort in your fermentation chamber for a few hours.   The one area where Wyeast absolutely blows White Labs out of the water is that one knows something about how the culture will perform before pitching it into starter wort. Wyeast smack packs have built-in proofing.  If the pack swells, the culture is good.  The rate at which the pack swells also provides insight into the condition of the culture as well as to how well it will respond when pitched into starter wort.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 03:38:58 AM by S. cerevisiae »

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 02:54:26 AM »
Jim, it sounds like you have the process dialed-in for your environment.  As  much as I would like say that culture X pitched into 1L of starter wort is going reach high krausen at time X, yeast behavior just cannot be quantified to that level of precision in a general way, especially when things such as water composition, wort composition, incubation time, and incubation temperature are factored into the equation.  That's why I give a window of between 12 and 18 hours after inoculation.  The best thing that one can do is what you are doing; namely, inoculating, observing, and adjusting the incubation time frame per one's observations. 

In your case, I would feel comfortable making the starter in the morning and pitching 12 hours later.  The worst case scenario is that you have to place a chilled batch of wort in your fermentation chamber for a few hours.   The one area where Wyeast absolutely blows White Labs out of the water is that one knows something about how the culture will perform before pitching it into starter wort. Wyeast smack packs have built-in proofing.  If the pack swells, the culture is good.  That rate at which the pack swells also provides insight into the condition of the culture as well as to how well it will respond when pitched into starter wort.
Sweet. I think I'm close enough, but I'll keep making small tweaks.

Offline jeffy

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 02:42:44 PM »
I used the shaken method last weekend and pitched a very active 1.6 liter starter (with 160g of dme) pitched about 18 hours after making the starter.
I was surprised at the gravity reading I took yesterday, 6 days after brewing, which had gone from 1.048 to 1.020.  I really expected it to be finished by now.
It's a Belgian Witbier recipe that I've made a dozen times or so using Wyeast 3944, fermented in the mid 60'sF.
So that's one variable that would be measurable, if it's not an anomaly.
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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 03:33:07 PM »
I used the shaken method last weekend and pitched a very active 1.6 liter starter (with 160g of dme) pitched about 18 hours after making the starter.
I was surprised at the gravity reading I took yesterday, 6 days after brewing, which had gone from 1.048 to 1.020.  I really expected it to be finished by now.
It's a Belgian Witbier recipe that I've made a dozen times or so using Wyeast 3944, fermented in the mid 60'sF.
So that's one variable that would be measurable, if it's not an anomaly.

Interesting info, Jeff.
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Offline Steve Ruch

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2015, 04:12:02 PM »
So, basically this way I can use a smaller starter and still be good.
I usually use dry yeast, but this easy smaller starter method would make using more liquid yeast a good option.
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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2015, 04:46:39 PM »
I used the shaken method last weekend and pitched a very active 1.6 liter starter (with 160g of dme) pitched about 18 hours after making the starter.
I was surprised at the gravity reading I took yesterday, 6 days after brewing, which had gone from 1.048 to 1.020.  I really expected it to be finished by now.
It's a Belgian Witbier recipe that I've made a dozen times or so using Wyeast 3944, fermented in the mid 60'sF.
So that's one variable that would be measurable, if it's not an anomaly.

How big was the container in which you prepared the starter?  The container has to be at least four times the volume of the starter.