Author Topic: New starter procedure trial  (Read 57548 times)

S. cerevisiae

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #150 on: October 05, 2015, 11:57:00 pm »
Denny has a good point about the certainty with which Mark makes some statements.  I think it can be off putting at times, particularly to newer brewers or people who don't spend as much time on here as some of us.

I did not see any objecting when Keith basically called IPA and stout newbie poser beers.

I am not attempting to be off putting.  A lot of unqualified data enters this hobby as fact when people refuse to stand up and claim that the emperor has no clothes.   What Dave Line said about animals does have merit.  I own goldens, and I can say without reservation that brewing with them in the house is much more challenging than it was when I owned non-shedding breeds.  Is it possible to brew with animals in the house? Absolutely  Do animals add complexity to the equation? Absolutely  Wild microflora rides through the air on house dust.  Anything that increases the amount of house dust in a house increases the possibility of infection.  Animals increase the amount of house dust in a house, and so do people.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #151 on: October 06, 2015, 12:24:03 am »
I did not see any objecting when Keith basically called IPA and stout newbie poser beers.


I enjoy drinking and brewing a variety of styles - I've brewed over 35 styles over the years. Included among those styles are stouts and IPAs. I do recognize that they can cover flaws for new brewers but surprisingly, I don't feel like a newbie hack when I brew those. Nor would the Brits, or Matt Brynildson, Vinnie Cilurzo, etc.,  I assume.   ;)
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #152 on: October 06, 2015, 12:48:59 am »
I agree that this effect exists but that it is a side effect. I just don't see people saying "rather than learn how to make good beer I'm going to just add a crazy amount of hops". OTOH I would be willing to bet that many new brewers who make hoppy (or really roasty beers) think they are great brewers until they start making more balanced or subtle styles.

Bingo!  I have seen this dynamic play out more times than not over the last twenty-something years. Most of the members on this forum have clearly made it past this point in the hobby.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #153 on: October 06, 2015, 12:55:54 am »
I sure have, not. Not yet. Working on it. Thats the fun of it.

Back to the main theme. Denny, I dig that update. Glad it turned out great. You know you are really in the grease now with the stirplate folk. Good luck with that lol

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #154 on: October 06, 2015, 01:05:09 am »

I did not see any objecting when Keith basically called IPA and stout newbie poser beers.


I enjoy drinking and brewing a variety of styles - I've brewed over 35 styles over the years. Included among those styles are stouts and IPAs. I do recognize that they can cover flaws for new brewers but surprisingly, I don't feel like a newbie hack when I brew those. Nor would the Brits, or Matt Brynildson, Vinnie Cilurzo, etc.,  I assume.   ;)

Perfectly said. Making a "naked" beer, one without any opportunity to mask defects is a must for every brewer. Provides an opportunity to test your craft.  But having passed that gate, making any style just becomes an opportunity to express ones self, not a cloak to hide behind.


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Offline Hooper

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #155 on: October 06, 2015, 01:26:30 am »
Usually I'd have a joke ready at this point...but seriously...this Yeast and Fermentation Sub Blog is Awesome...Brewing is constantly changing and you guys are on the edge...
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #156 on: October 06, 2015, 01:47:05 am »
I did not see any objecting when Keith basically called IPA and stout newbie poser beers.

In that case, I must have missed it and I'm objecting after the fact.

It's similar to the "you're not a brewer if you don't (insert whatever process here)" mindset.  I don't see that crop up on here so much, but it can on occasion.  And I think it's BS.
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Offline rcemech

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #157 on: October 06, 2015, 02:30:10 am »
So what equipment would you need to make a starter for a 1.050 gravity, 15 gal batch?

evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #158 on: October 06, 2015, 12:22:42 pm »
WELL, if you really wanted to do it right.. you would take the first bit of your cooled wort, do this starter method, and pitch that into the beer with the rest of the wort...Kind of a hybrid between this method and Drauflassen. *Puts down the mic, and slowly backs away into the curtain. *

thats my preferred method now - its easier, don't need to mess with DME and it doesn't take that long to hit HK.

for a lager do you ferment at room temp or lager temp when you do this?

Offline blatz

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #159 on: October 06, 2015, 01:08:00 pm »

WELL, if you really wanted to do it right.. you would take the first bit of your cooled wort, do this starter method, and pitch that into the beer with the rest of the wort...Kind of a hybrid between this method and Drauflassen. *Puts down the mic, and slowly backs away into the curtain. *

thats my preferred method now - its easier, don't need to mess with DME and it doesn't take that long to hit HK.

for a lager do you ferment at room temp or lager temp when you do this?

Lager temp
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evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #160 on: October 06, 2015, 01:10:11 pm »

WELL, if you really wanted to do it right.. you would take the first bit of your cooled wort, do this starter method, and pitch that into the beer with the rest of the wort...Kind of a hybrid between this method and Drauflassen. *Puts down the mic, and slowly backs away into the curtain. *

thats my preferred method now - its easier, don't need to mess with DME and it doesn't take that long to hit HK.

for a lager do you ferment at room temp or lager temp when you do this?

Lager temp

does it take a little longer to hit HK at the cooler temp?  I like the sound of this b/c I already do my mashes overnight so I could pull a gallon that night and give a 20 min boil or something and use that as my "starter".

I know what I'm talking about isn't quite the same as what Mark is advocating but I think it has some of the key elements - lack of stirring, lots of O2 (I would do this either way), and yeast pitched at HK.

I feel like the larger starter is a little bit of an insurance policy.  Call me a nervous nelly if you must
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:36:34 pm by evil_morty »

S. cerevisiae

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #161 on: October 06, 2015, 02:42:12 pm »
WELL, if you really wanted to do it right.. you would take the first bit of your cooled wort, do this starter method, and pitch that into the beer with the rest of the wort...Kind of a hybrid between this method and Drauflassen. *Puts down the mic, and slowly backs away into the curtain. *

When propagating from slant, using wort from the target batch is not a possibility.  The bias against DME in a starter is as unfounded as the bias against non-all malt beers used to be.  A 10% w/v starter contains 100 grams of extract, most of which will be attenuated by the time that the starter is pitched.  The average American ale or lager is around 13P, which means that a 5-gallon batch contains 19 * 130 = 2470 grams of extract, making the extract from the starter 100 / (2470 + 100) * 100 = 3.9% of the total.   Add in the fact that a starter is usually made with unhopped extra pale DME, and there is no detectable flavor contribution from the DME. The DME wort bogeyman is not going to ruin one's beer. 

If one wants to make the starter media even more neutrally flavored, one can use 50% DME/50% dextrose and 1/4 tsp of a complete yeast nutrient (e.g., Wyeast Nutrient Blend of Fermax) to boost the trace element and nitrogen level.  That's how I prepare starter medium (contrary to home brewing myth, one yeast is not going to forget how to produce the enzymes necessary to reduce disaccharides and trisaccharides to monosaccharides).  I use MYGP for solid media.  MYGP is made from malt extract, yeast extract, glucose (dextrose), and peptone (I use soytone to avoid the possibility of getting BSE tainted peptone altogether).  The MYGP media that I prepare contains 0.3% w/v malt extract,  0.3% w/v yeast extract, 1% w/v dextrose, and 0.5% soytone.   It is solidified with 1.5% w/v powdered agar.

Recipe for 1L of solidified MYGP

3 grams of extra pale malt extract
3 grams of yeast extract (lab grade, not Marmite)
10 grams of dextrose
5 grams of soytone (or peptone)
15 grams of agar (powder or flakes)
0.3% w/v malt extract,  0.3% w/v yeast extract, 1% w/v dextrose, and 0.5% soytone.   It is solidified with 1.5% w/v powered agar.


One last thing, every minute that a wort goes unpitched is a minute for house microflora to reproduce.  No brewery is sterile; therefore, people who are cooling wort to below 140F before placing it in a fermentation vessel should makes certain that their brewery hygiene is solid.  While cool temperatures retard the growth of microflora, they do not stop the growth of microflora.  As anyone who has left something in his/her refrigerator for a couple of week can attest, microflora does reproduce at 3C to 4C (the temperature range for the average refrigerator). Bacteria cells double every 30 minutes.

evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #162 on: October 06, 2015, 02:46:35 pm »
One last thing, every minute that a wort goes unpitched is a minute for house microflora to reproduce.  No brewery is sterile; therefore, people who are cooling wort to below 140F before placing it in a fermentation vessel should makes certain that their brewery hygiene is solid.  While cool temperatures retard the growth of microflora, they do not stop the growth of microflora.  As anyone who has left something in his/her refrigerator for a couple of week can attest, microflora does reproduce at 3C to 4C (the temperature range for the average refrigerator). Bacteria cells double every 30 minutes.

this is def a concern I have with people who are waiting to pitch yeast in their wort.  fortunately with my overnight mash I can delay the production all of the target wort by about 12-13 hours which would give my starter plenty of time to get going before the wort has been chilled.

Offline denny

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #163 on: October 06, 2015, 04:10:45 pm »
Denny has a good point about the certainty with which Mark makes some statements.  I think it can be off putting at times, particularly to newer brewers or people who don't spend as much time on here as some of us.

I did not see any objecting when Keith basically called IPA and stout newbie poser beers.

I am not attempting to be off putting.  A lot of unqualified data enters this hobby as fact when people refuse to stand up and claim that the emperor has no clothes.   What Dave Line said about animals does have merit.  I own goldens, and I can say without reservation that brewing with them in the house is much more challenging than it was when I owned non-shedding breeds.  Is it possible to brew with animals in the house? Absolutely  Do animals add complexity to the equation? Absolutely  Wild microflora rides through the air on house dust.  Anything that increases the amount of house dust in a house increases the possibility of infection.  Animals increase the amount of house dust in a house, and so do people.

I have five cats and 2 dogs.   Maybe it's becasue I've had pets the entire time I've brewed that I don't find them to be any impediment at at all.  Mark, I may have used the wrong phrasing and inadvertently insulted you.  I certainly did not intend that.  It's just that when you state things so categorically that are in direct opposition to what I've observed empirically that I feel like it's sometimes over the top.  You and I have diametrically opposed philosophies about this stuff, but there's room for both sides.  I've learned a lot from you.  I hope what you'll learn from me is that you can relax a bit!  :)
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Offline macbrews

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #164 on: October 06, 2015, 04:40:44 pm »
Denny has a good point about the certainty with which Mark makes some statements.  I think it can be off putting at times, particularly to newer brewers or people who don't spend as much time on here as some of us.

I did not see any objecting when Keith basically called IPA and stout newbie poser beers.

I am not attempting to be off putting.  A lot of unqualified data enters this hobby as fact when people refuse to stand up and claim that the emperor has no clothes.   What Dave Line said about animals does have merit.  I own goldens, and I can say without reservation that brewing with them in the house is much more challenging than it was when I owned non-shedding breeds.  Is it possible to brew with animals in the house? Absolutely  Do animals add complexity to the equation? Absolutely  Wild microflora rides through the air on house dust.  Anything that increases the amount of house dust in a house increases the possibility of infection.  Animals increase the amount of house dust in a house, and so do people.

I bathe my dogs in Star San to avoid such a problem