Author Topic: New starter procedure trial  (Read 66343 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2015, 04:32:46 pm »
Great news.

RPIScotty

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New starter procedure trial
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2015, 05:05:05 pm »
Denny must have tried this by now - interested to hear what he thinks...

He started the thread. Were all waiting to hear his opinion on the finished product.

EDIT: Nevermind. Tapatalk made me look foolish! He already posted his results!

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evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2015, 05:09:11 pm »
Denny must have tried this by now - interested to hear what he thinks...

He started the thread. Were all waiting to hear his opinion on the finished product.

EDIT: Nevermind. Tapatalk made me look foolish! He already posted his results!

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yeah, I just meant tried the carbed beer ;)

RPIScotty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2015, 05:42:52 pm »

Denny must have tried this by now - interested to hear what he thinks...

He started the thread. Were all waiting to hear his opinion on the finished product.

EDIT: Nevermind. Tapatalk made me look foolish! He already posted his results!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeah, I just meant tried the carbed beer ;)

Understood. Long day today!


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Offline narvin

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2015, 06:41:50 pm »
It's also possible you were over pitching in the past.  For 5 gallons of 1.060 ish wort, you really only need 200 billion cells to hit the "textbook" ale pitching rate.  That's maybe a 1L starter on a stir plate.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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New starter procedure trial
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2015, 06:45:24 pm »
Not surprised. Not much different from what I experienced with a pack of fresh pure pitch .....doesn't take a ton of yeast when they are healthy and ready to rock.


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« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 07:40:42 pm by Wort-H.O.G. »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2015, 08:32:00 pm »
This weekend (Tuesday for me) I'm taking my second run at no stir starters with a pale and a stout. After those, it's lager time. I'm not freaked out about doing it with a lager, but rather keeping an open mind. Honestly, I hope they turn out world class. Why wouldn't I?

evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2015, 05:00:55 am »
In particular, the biggest issue for me with this method is that I like having my starter finished before I brew; pitching at high krausen adds another complication to the brew day. 

This method will generally allow a brewer to make his/her starter the night before brewing, eliminating the need for a long lead time (i.e., it is almost as convenient as using dry yeast).  That being said, the method will still work if a brewer finds himself/herself unable to brew until after the starter ferments out.  A fermented out shaken, not stirred starter works as well as any other starter of the same volume that is allowed to ferment out.  However, the key to maximizing this method or any other starter method is to pitch at high krausen.

what is it about high krausen that is so important?  does this allow the yeast to immediately start replicating when it is pitched into the wort?  what would happen if it wasn't high krausen?  how long does this window of time (high krausen) typically last?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 05:23:08 am by evil_morty »

RPIScotty

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New starter procedure trial
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2015, 06:26:01 am »
what is it about high krausen that is so important?  does this allow the yeast to immediately start replicating when it is pitched into the wort?  what would happen if it wasn't high krausen?  how long does this window of time (high krausen) typically last?

High krausen represents the peak activity of the yeast. It's similar to when a fermenting batch is top cropped and pitched into a new batch at high krausen. The yeast are most active and healthy at this stage.

The timing has been discussed earlier in this thread.


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evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2015, 06:41:59 am »
what is it about high krausen that is so important?  does this allow the yeast to immediately start replicating when it is pitched into the wort?  what would happen if it wasn't high krausen?  how long does this window of time (high krausen) typically last?

High krausen represents the peak activity of the yeast. It's similar to when a fermenting batch is top cropped and pitched into a new batch at high krausen. The yeast are most active and healthy at this stage.

The timing has been discussed earlier in this thread.


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I suspect there is something a little more to it than that.  I believe I have read that early in the fermentation the yeast needs to drop the pH of the wort.  I'm under the impression that the fewer yeast cells there are to start with the more difficult this process becomes.  but perhaps yeast that are already actively replicating (high krausen?) is a different scenario.  some detail on that would be nice.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 06:51:51 am by evil_morty »

RPIScotty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2015, 06:58:01 am »

I suspect there is something a little more to it than that.  I believe I have read that early in the fermentation the yeast needs to drop the pH of the wort.  I'm under the impression that the fewer yeast cells there are to start with the more difficult this process becomes.  but perhaps yeast that are already actively replicating (high krausen?) is a different scenario.  some detail on that would be nice.

I'll let Mark chime in, but I suspect people may be overthinking this.


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2015, 06:58:04 am »
what is it about high krausen that is so important?  does this allow the yeast to immediately start replicating when it is pitched into the wort?  what would happen if it wasn't high krausen?  how long does this window of time (high krausen) typically last?

High krausen represents the peak activity of the yeast. It's similar to when a fermenting batch is top cropped and pitched into a new batch at high krausen. The yeast are most active and healthy at this stage.

The timing has been discussed earlier in this thread.


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I suspect there is something a little more to it than that.  I believe I have read that early in the fermentation the yeast needs to drop the pH of the wort.  I'm under the impression that the fewer yeast cells there are to start with the more difficult this process becomes.  but perhaps yeast that are already actively replicating (high krausen?) is a different scenario.  some detail on that would be nice.
From Mr Malty aka Zainashef

"Q: At what point do I pitch the starter into the wort? A great deal of discussion rages over this topic. Should the starter be fermented completely, the spent liquid decanted, and the yeast pitched or should the entire starter be pitched when at the height of activity? Most yeast experts say that when propagating yeast, moving at high krausen is optimal. The time of high krauesen can range anywhere from a few hours to twenty-four or more. It depends on the amount of yeast added to the starter wort, yeast health, temperature, and several other factors. Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours. I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours. This is really convenient, because I can make a starter the morning of the brew day or the night before and it is ready to go by the time the batch of wort is ready. "

It seems to me that they key controversy is stirplates. Zainashef has said they are the best, Mark says no. I know that stirplates work. I know that oxygenated shook starters with no stirplate work too, but I end up with a far better smelling pitch, and so far the main fermentation appears to take off faster and is more vigorous. But thats from just one trial so far.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 07:03:38 am by klickitat jim »

evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2015, 07:15:33 am »
From Mr Malty aka Zainashef

"Q: At what point do I pitch the starter into the wort? A great deal of discussion rages over this topic. Should the starter be fermented completely, the spent liquid decanted, and the yeast pitched or should the entire starter be pitched when at the height of activity? Most yeast experts say that when propagating yeast, moving at high krausen is optimal. The time of high krauesen can range anywhere from a few hours to twenty-four or more. It depends on the amount of yeast added to the starter wort, yeast health, temperature, and several other factors. Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours. I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours. This is really convenient, because I can make a starter the morning of the brew day or the night before and it is ready to go by the time the batch of wort is ready. "

It seems to me that they key controversy is stirplates. Zainashef has said they are the best, Mark says no. I know that stirplates work. I know that oxygenated shook starters with no stirplate work too, but I end up with a far better smelling pitch, and so far the main fermentation appears to take off faster and is more vigorous. But thats from just one trial so far.

I think the pitching rate is the second area of contention here.  Mr. Malty recommends something around 0.75-1.5M cells per mL per deg plato.  Here it is something more like 0.25M cells per mL per deg plato.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2015, 07:42:42 am »
From Mr Malty aka Zainashef

"Q: At what point do I pitch the starter into the wort? A great deal of discussion rages over this topic. Should the starter be fermented completely, the spent liquid decanted, and the yeast pitched or should the entire starter be pitched when at the height of activity? Most yeast experts say that when propagating yeast, moving at high krausen is optimal. The time of high krauesen can range anywhere from a few hours to twenty-four or more. It depends on the amount of yeast added to the starter wort, yeast health, temperature, and several other factors. Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours. I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours. This is really convenient, because I can make a starter the morning of the brew day or the night before and it is ready to go by the time the batch of wort is ready. "

It seems to me that they key controversy is stirplates. Zainashef has said they are the best, Mark says no. I know that stirplates work. I know that oxygenated shook starters with no stirplate work too, but I end up with a far better smelling pitch, and so far the main fermentation appears to take off faster and is more vigorous. But thats from just one trial so far.

I think the pitching rate is the second area of contention here.  Mr. Malty recommends something around 0.75-1.5M cells per mL per deg plato.  Here it is something more like 0.25M cells per mL per deg plato.
Earlier in the "yeast essentials" article, zainashef talks about needed cell count, but if you read it in context hes talking about repitching a harvested slurry there. A starter that is fermented out, crashed, and decanted is basically a harvested yeast slurry. Seems to me an amount of harvested slurry may have different requirements than active high krausen pitch.

evil_morty

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Re: New starter procedure trial
« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2015, 07:49:27 am »
From Mr Malty aka Zainashef

"Q: At what point do I pitch the starter into the wort? A great deal of discussion rages over this topic. Should the starter be fermented completely, the spent liquid decanted, and the yeast pitched or should the entire starter be pitched when at the height of activity? Most yeast experts say that when propagating yeast, moving at high krausen is optimal. The time of high krauesen can range anywhere from a few hours to twenty-four or more. It depends on the amount of yeast added to the starter wort, yeast health, temperature, and several other factors. Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you're starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours. I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours. This is really convenient, because I can make a starter the morning of the brew day or the night before and it is ready to go by the time the batch of wort is ready. "

It seems to me that they key controversy is stirplates. Zainashef has said they are the best, Mark says no. I know that stirplates work. I know that oxygenated shook starters with no stirplate work too, but I end up with a far better smelling pitch, and so far the main fermentation appears to take off faster and is more vigorous. But thats from just one trial so far.

I think the pitching rate is the second area of contention here.  Mr. Malty recommends something around 0.75-1.5M cells per mL per deg plato.  Here it is something more like 0.25M cells per mL per deg plato.
Earlier in the "yeast essentials" article, zainashef talks about needed cell count, but if you read it in context hes talking about repitching a harvested slurry there. A starter that is fermented out, crashed, and decanted is basically a harvested yeast slurry. Seems to me an amount of harvested slurry may have different requirements than active high krausen pitch.

that makes sense.  I was just looking for the reason why so I can sleep well at night :P