Author Topic: Shaken not stirred lager starter?  (Read 19341 times)

Offline charles1968

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #105 on: November 04, 2015, 09:19:44 pm »
"Inhibitory effects of excessive oxygen on the growth of yeast are known and have been reviewed12,30.  Such inhibition is unusual in brewery circumstances.

Exactly.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 09:41:14 pm by charles1968 »

Offline Whiskers

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #106 on: November 04, 2015, 09:26:54 pm »
Thanks for clarifying.  So, assuming an initial saturation, whether it be 8ppm from air or more with pure O2, the difference in cell count between a stirred and stagnant starter is not significant, or is it significant and due to something other than O2?  Wyeast seems to say stirring makes more (but not that much more) but doesn't say why.  The yeast book implies it makes a chunk more, and I think the MB Raines text says it can make a phenomenal difference. 

It's been a few years since I made a lager.  My general approach was to make a liter or two to get the yeast going, and pitch the whole starter into another 2gal starter (was generally making a 16.5-17gal batch of 1.060 lager).  The second stage was in a 3gal carboy with no way to utilize a stir bar.  (I would have been using a stir plate/bar for the  initial liter)  I thought I could make up for the no-stir by leaving the O2 tubing and stone in the wort for the first couple of hours - under a big foil cap of course.  I'd come by every 20 min and give the wort another 20s blast two or three times.  Hard to measure volume by looking at a layer on the bottom of a carboy, but there seemed to be quite a bit more yeast compared to the times when I'd do the 2gal with only one initial blast of O2.  I probably should have measured the solids once decanting the beer, but I never did. 

Thanks for linking the paper too. 

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2015, 04:16:22 pm »
My 1L no stir plate prior to pitch. IPA Wort is all ready when this baby hits high krausen.



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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2015, 01:32:43 pm »
My 1L no stir plate prior to pitch. IPA Wort is all ready when this baby hits high krausen.



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never made it to high krausen-nice thin layer though around 10pm when going to bed so i pitched it. this morning activity has started.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2015, 02:05:36 pm »
never made it to high krausen-nice thin layer though around 10pm when going to bed so i pitched it. this morning activity has started.

Some cultures never develop much of a head on starter for some reason whereas others produce a sizable head.  Bottom fermenting ale and lager yeast strains tend be part of the former group.  With bottom fermenters, high krausen often looks more like a thin layer of foam or even foam patches than a typical krausen.   


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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2015, 02:15:54 pm »
never made it to high krausen-nice thin layer though around 10pm when going to bed so i pitched it. this morning activity has started.

Some cultures never develop much of a head on starter for some reason whereas others produce a sizable head.  Bottom fermenting ale and lager yeast strains tend be part of the former group.  With bottom fermenters, high krausen often looks more like a thin layer of foam or even foam patches than a typical krausen.

it was wlp090. it was definitely fermenting. pitched 4 week old yeast into starter around 6am so by 10pm figured i was in pretty good shape.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
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Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
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Ger Pils
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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2015, 02:56:39 pm »
it was wlp090. it was definitely fermenting. pitched 4 week old yeast into starter around 6am so by 10pm figured i was in pretty good shape.

I do not have any experience with that culture.   What does the head look like when fermenting a batch of beer?

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Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2015, 03:07:35 pm »
Doesn't go krausen crazy by any means. Starter wort depth for 1L in my 5L flask was about 1.5 inch. Thin layer of krausen and lots of yeast clumps circles on top.


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
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Ger Pils
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Offline brewday

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2015, 03:50:59 pm »
Doesn't go krausen crazy by any means. Starter wort depth for 1L in my 5L flask was about 1.5 inch. Thin layer of krausen and lots of yeast clumps circles on top.


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That matches my experience with 090 non-stirred starters.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2015, 06:55:53 pm »
realized I have no point of reference as all my starters have been stir plate, and you don't usually really see krausen like still starter.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 08:41:05 pm by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2015, 07:18:41 pm »
I am more interested in seeing what WLP090 looks like when fermenting a batch of beer at full tilt.  There is zero doubt in my mind that WLP090 is an isolate from either BRY 96 or Whitbread "B."   My bet is that WLP090 is a Whitbread "B" isolate because it is fast fermenter.  House strains that descend from Whitbread "B" appear to dominate the San Diego brewing scene.

Offline Whiskers

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2015, 07:51:55 pm »
Is there any use in trying to guess where in the progression of stages the starter is based on CO2 evolution, or are there too many contributing factors to make this tek at all useful?  The reason I ask is because once I'm confident that the starter is into the CO2 phase, I used to turn off the stirplate, but I have a feeling that the drop of antifoam I used for the boil is squashing the head.  Even solid top croppers don't seem to make too much of head.  However, it's easy to put your ear near the foil cap and listen to the CO2 crackling.  If one could detect the time at which the crackling slows down a bit, could you say that you are at the beginning of the stationary phase or the end of it? 

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2015, 08:35:24 pm »
I am more interested in seeing what WLP090 looks like when fermenting a batch of beer at full tilt.  There is zero doubt in my mind that WLP090 is an isolate from either BRY 96 or Whitbread "B."   My bet is that WLP090 is a Whitbread "B" isolate because it is fast fermenter.  House strains that descend from Whitbread "B" appear to dominate the San Diego brewing scene.
I will post one

Fermentation at 18 hrs



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« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 09:36:21 pm by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2015, 11:04:11 pm »
Thanks for the posting the photo.   Please let me know if the head gets bigger and/or if it switches over from being a foam head to being a yeast head.   I am curious as to the origin of this yeast strain.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Shaken not stirred lager starter?
« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2015, 11:05:55 pm »
Thanks for the posting the photo.   Please let me know if the head gets bigger and/or if it switches over from being a foam head to being a yeast head.   I am curious as to the origin of this yeast strain.

Sure thing. Will take another tomorrow a.m. And p.m.   After that it will be approaching 72 hrs and winding down.

Edit: wlp090 is by far my favorite ale yeast. Love how it lets the malt and hops shine in pale ales and IPAs . Strong fast fermenter that is extremely clean and great attenuation. Flocs very well. Reminds me most of wlp007.

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« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:15:02 pm by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest