Author Topic: Another Munich Dunkel thread...  (Read 2561 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« on: September 30, 2015, 02:18:17 PM »
All:  When I went to Germany in 2013 I had some great Munich dunkel.  I thought that Augustiner made the best one but the Hacker Pschorr and even the Hofbrau dark were delicious.  I had some Czech dunkels on that trip as well but I would like to make a Munich Dunkel with some 2308 coming up here in the next week or so.  I have read numerous articles and threads on this topic but I'm posting this here in case there is any late-arriving information I should be aware of.  I have been brewing since 1999 and make a lot of lagers but this is my first dunkel.

Munich Dunkel

6 lbs Best Malz Munich (10L) [62%]
3.50 lbs Avangard German Pilsner [36%]
3 ounces German Carafa Special III [2%]
1.5 ounces Hallertau 3.2% for 60
1 ounce Hallertau 3.2% for 20
2308 Munich Lager Yeast

OG: 1.054, FG: 1.014, IBU: 25, SRM: 17, ABV: 5.2%


I would single-infuse the mash at 150° and I would want the beer to finish dry so the lower mash temp, a bit of sulfate and the pilsner malt may all help with that. I have heard of some people saying that 100% dark munich (the 9-12L stuff) can be overwhelming so they might use mostly light munich (the 6-8L stuff) instead.  This is the reason for the percentage of pilsner... to keep it from being overly malty or finishing too heavy.  I would be using my source water with the chloride and sulfate numbers being fairly close but still favoring chloride by a few ticks.  Feel free to poke holes in it or give me some direction. Prost!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 02:20:20 PM by Village Taphouse »

Offline BrodyR

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 02:24:56 PM »
All:  When I went to Germany in 2013 I had some great Munich dunkel.  I thought that Augustiner made the best one but the Hacker Pschorr and even the Hofbrau dark were delicious.  I had some Czech dunkels on that trip as well but I would like to make a Munich Dunkel with some 2308 coming up here in the next week or so.  I have read numerous articles and threads on this topic but I'm posting this here in case there is any late-arriving information I should be aware of.  I have been brewing since 1999 and make a lot of lagers but this is my first dunkel.

Munich Dunkel

6 lbs Best Malz Munich (10L) [62%]
3.50 lbs Avangard German Pilsner [36%]
3 ounces German Carafa Special III [2%]
1.5 ounces Hallertau 3.2% for 60
1 ounce Hallertau 3.2% for 20
2308 Munich Lager Yeast

OG: 1.054, FG: 1.014, IBU: 25, SRM: 17, ABV: 5.2%


I would single-infuse the mash at 150° and I would want the beer to finish dry so the lower mash temp, a bit of sulfate and the pilsner malt may all help with that. I have heard of some people saying that 100% dark munich (the 9-12L stuff) can be overwhelming so they might use mostly light munich (the 6-8L stuff) instead.  This is the reason for the percentage of pilsner... to keep it from being overly malty or finishing too heavy.  I would be using my source water with the chloride and sulfate numbers being fairly close but still favoring chloride by a few ticks.  Feel free to poke holes in it or give me some direction. Prost!

I've had a dunkel on my mind as well (only have a 2 lagers under my belt - an Oktoberfest I recently kicked & a Czech Pils lagering atm) lately. Interested to see how this thread turns out. I have 0 experience brewing dunkel but what you posted lines up with what I've read so far.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2015, 02:26:02 PM »
What's your goal with the beer? BJCP competition, or

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2015, 02:34:37 PM »
Try your recipe and see what you think. Personal taste preference should dictate -less concern if not brewing for competition IMO. FWIW- dark munich can be really nice without being cloying or heavy.

i have been brewing my dunkel this way and have really liked it. mash at 149-150F for 90 minutes. 22ibu, 5.6% ABV.FG 1.010-1.011

Ingredients                                                     Amt Name          %/IBU
9 lbs Munich Dark (Avangard) (15.0 SRM)          80.9 %
2 lbs Munich Malt light (Avangard) (7.0 SRM)      18.0 %
2.0 oz Carafa II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM)       1.1 %
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [2.70 %] -          Boil 45.0 min  3.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Magnum [12.40 %] -                            Boil 45.0 min  18.1 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
0.50 tsp wyeast yeast nutrient (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 7 -
1.0 pkg German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) [35.49 ml] 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 03:12:41 PM by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Offline goschman

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2015, 02:38:25 PM »
I too have been wanting to tackle this style for a while. My plan is to use some pilsner with the munich as well but more like 1:4. I have used 3 oz of carafa special III in a an altbier and got too much roast. My goal for a dunkel would be to make it a late mash addition in attempt to get more color than roast. The 'dark munich' that I use is 9L...
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2015, 02:47:28 PM »
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2015, 02:49:10 PM »
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2015, 02:51:55 PM »
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
I have heard people suggest this many times.  So mill it like usual but keep it separate and add it to the mash when there is what... 5 minutes left?  You get color with less/no flavor?  Interesting.  I have never tried it.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2015, 02:54:50 PM »
Thanks guys:  Not for competition.  I hate shipping beer so this is just for personal consumption.  I love the Weyermann Carafa Special 3 but the most I have used in one 5-gallon batch is 2 ounces.  I notice that the slight roast character you get from it dissipates after the beer has lagered a bit and then you end up with a nice, smooth & chocolately flavor component.  It seems like many of these recipes are in the same zip code between the dark & light munich, possibly pilsner and then carafa of some variety.  I belong to a "German Brewing" and "Advanced German Brewing" group on FB and many there say that it looks promising and to go ahead with it "as-is" and then make adjustments from there.  I appreciate the direction gang.  Cheers.

if you're not already, throw the carafa at end of mash. I switched to carafa II and get no roast.
I have heard people suggest this many times.  So mill it like usual but keep it separate and add it to the mash when there is what... 5 minutes left?  You get color with less/no flavor?  Interesting.  I have never tried it.

yes. i batch sparge, so last 5-10 minutes of my 90 minute mash i throw in the milled carafa II, proceed as normal from there and batch sparge. my dunkel is about 16SRM.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2015, 02:58:37 PM »
Yes, I batch sparge as well.  I could easily try this and see how it does.  I would say again that the character I get from the carafa special III is enjoyable to me but I am in unfamiliar territory at 3-ounces in 5-gallons so it may be a good idea to approach it this way.  Thanks again guys. 

Ps.  I have been brewing for 16+ years now but I am new to this forum.  I'm getting a very good vibe from the members here, many of whom I have bumped into elsewhere.  Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2015, 03:02:02 PM »
Yes, I batch sparge as well.  I could easily try this and see how it does.  I would say again that the character I get from the carafa special III is enjoyable to me but I am in unfamiliar territory at 3-ounces in 5-gallons so it may be a good idea to approach it this way.  Thanks again guys. 

Ps.  I have been brewing for 16+ years now but I am new to this forum.  I'm getting a very good vibe from the members here, many of whom I have bumped into elsewhere.  Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

welcome! ive overdone the carafa II/III before and do not want any roast in my dunkel-not to say others may not like it...just not for me in this beer. i've stuck to about 1% carafa II in my dunkel  and that works for me and my tastes.

good luck and let us know how it turns out for you.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline blatz

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 03:05:15 PM »
i've switched from Carafa to Midnight Wheat when using for color additions, FWIW.

works better in the is application for me.

one tip - mill your dark malt first, put it aside, then run your other grains through - helps clean off the dark malt off the rollers a bit better and you won't have any residue.  i personally add just before sparging, but i fly sparge, so longer contact time than BS.

also, i personally was a bit overwhelmed with the all dark munich (weyermann) dunkel I did a few years back - one judge questioned if it was a bit underattenuated since the malt character was so rich - 76-77% attenuation and it finished at 1.013 IIRC.  my thought is i either need to mash even longer at the low end next time, or mix in some pils and/or munich I.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 03:07:20 PM by blatz »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2015, 03:10:15 PM »
This fall will be my second season for working on my Dunkel. The last one went to a couple BJCP Master judges and I need to fix a couple things. Needs more attenuation, drop the SO4-CaCl balance, add a little more German hop to balance.

Here's my up coming fixed recipe
1.055 OG
50/50 Best Malz Light and Dark Munich
3 oz Midnight Wheat for color adjustment
Mash long at 150F, 50ppm Calcium from CaCl, 5.4 mash pH
For a 6 gallon brew
1/2 oz Magnum @ 60
1 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh @ 5
1/2 tab of whirlflock and a little nutrient
Pitching two 1L shaken not stirred starters of Wyeast Munich at 48 with temp set at 50. After a week 1º per day rise to 60.
I'm shooting for 4.4 ph final
Fined at 30F with gelatin
Bottle conditioned at room temp for 30 days then cold stored for another 30.

Im shooting for a rich munich malt, but well attenuated, balanced slightly to the malt side with hops still easily noticed.

We'll see I gues

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2015, 03:31:08 PM »
Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Another Munich Dunkel thread...
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2015, 04:38:20 PM »
Jim:  When you say 'drop the SO4-CaCl' balance, are you saying to lower the sulfate?  This is one area I have looked carefully at in terms of this recipe.  All of my water numbers are modest (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27) and my goal was to use enough gypsum in the mash to bring out some dryness in the finish.  I realize this could be accomplished with a lower mash temp (possibly) and I also realize that more gypsum in the mash will not counter a high FG or a cloying maltiness brought on by too much dark munich.  My water profile for this batch is set to 'balanced' with something like... (I just checked the water page on my recipe)... 48ppm cl and 49ppm SO4.  These are low numbers that slightly favor SO4.  Thoughts on that?
cl/so4 ratio: 2.0 very dry. 1.3 balanced, .5 very full.  Jim may be targeting somewhere between amber full and amber balanced by lowering sulfate. I went with this after a few batches. I dropped gypsum levels and increased Epsom salts to get my sulfate. I also make sure to get 15-20ppm sodium.





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« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 04:56:55 PM by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest