[Iliff Ave]

So I have been working on trying to get a pale ale dialed in. My first two attempts have been OK and not great in that order. My main issues are likely related to hop usage and too much malt character (too much munich). I am thinking of a complete overhaul of my last attempts and going with something like this:

80% Pilsner
15% Vienna
5% caramunich

28 g Simcoe 25 min
14 g Cascade 15 min
14 g Cascade 10 min
14 g Cascade 5 min
14 g Cascade 0 min
28 g Citra Dry hop
14 g Simcoe Dry hop
14 g Cascade Dry hop

~45 IBU?

The hop choices are completely different. After experimenting with some newer hops varieties, I have discovered that I really enjoy the classic citrus character of Cascade so I want this to be one point of focus for this attempt. I realize the citra and simcoe will cover some of that cascade character.

The critiques I realize are probably coming:
*don't use German malt in an APA.
I pretty much only brew American or German styles or a hybrid of the two. I like German malt a lot and use my hops and yeast to determine which direction I want to go...

*move all of your hop additions to the very end of the boil/hopstand.
My first two attempts had 60 min & FWH additions for bittering with everything else at flame out and hopstand. Something must have been off with my hopstand temp because I didn't get results I was hoping for. I have brewed a couple of beers that did not have bittering hops with equal additions at 20, 10, 5, 0. I really enjoyed the hop character and flavor although they were not pale ales. I thought I would try this in an APA then come back to hopstands if necessary.

*Not enough hops
This may be a valid critique. I am brewing an APA not an IPA so I am not going for crazy hop character here. I am open to suggestions regarding amounts for sure...

[Wort-H.O.G.]

So I have been working on trying to get a pale ale dialed in. My first two attempts have been OK and not great in that order. My main issues are likely related to hop usage and too much malt character (too much munich). I am thinking of a complete overhaul of my last attempts and going with something like this:

80% Pilsner
15% Vienna
5% caramunich

28 g Simcoe 25 min
14 g Cascade 15 min
14 g Cascade 10 min
14 g Cascade 5 min
14 g Cascade 0 min
28 g Citra Dry hop
14 g Simcoe Dry hop
14 g Cascade Dry hop

~45 IBU?

The hop choices are completely different. After experimenting with some newer hops varieties, I have discovered that I really enjoy the classic citrus character of Cascade so I want this to be one point of focus for this attempt. I realize the citra and simcoe will cover some of that cascade character.

The critiques I realize are probably coming:
*don't use German malt in an APA.
I pretty much only brew American or German styles or a hybrid of the two. I like German malt a lot and use my hops and yeast to determine which direction I want to go...

*move all of your hop additions to the very end of the boil/hopstand.
My first two attempts had 60 min & FWH additions for bittering with everything else at flame out and hopstand. Something must have been off with my hopstand temp because I didn't get results I was hoping for. I have brewed a couple of beers that did not have bittering hops with equal additions at 20, 10, 5, 0. I really enjoyed the hop character and flavor although they were not pale ales. I thought I would try this in an APA then come back to hopstands if necessary.

*Not enough hops
This may be a valid critique. I am brewing an APA not an IPA so I am not going for crazy hop character here. I am open to suggestions regarding amounts for sure...

some of my favorite Pale ales Ive made are with german malts.  I think either the all vienna or the vienna and pils is good...just different results. not sure what exactly you feel you are missing, but i'd focus on water profile and hop schedule. i like my IPA and PA dry but with a nice moderate malt taste somewhere in the sip. otherwise, its can seem thin or all hops-and that's not my favorite. i usually target 100-150 ppm sulfate in my pale, over 200 in my IPA. PH 5.4. i too use late hope additions, hop stands, and dry hops.

edit: here's an example of one i really love-im like you big fan of cascade, centennial and citra. 44IBU

Amt                   Name                                                     Type                  %/IBU         
8 lbs 8.0 oz          Vienna (4.5 SRM)                                85.0 %       
1 lbs                 Carared (Weyermann) (24.0 SRM)          10.0 %       
8.0 oz                Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM)                      5.0 %         
0.50 Items            Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)        -             
1.00 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min                             12.6 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min                                 13.8 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min                               5.0 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min                                     4.2 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Citra [14.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min                                         8.7 IBUs     
1.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.           
1.00 oz               Cascade [6.90 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days                             0.0 IBUs     

[Iliff Ave]

some of my favorite Pale ales Ive made are with german malts.  I think either the all vienna or the vienna and pils is good...just different results. not sure what exactly you feel you are missing, but i'd focus on water profile and hop schedule. i like my IPA and PA dry but with a nice moderate malt taste somewhere in the sip. otherwise, its can seem thin or all hops-and that's not my favorite. i usually target 100-150 ppm sulfate in my pale, over 200 in my IPA. PH 5.4. i too use late hope additions, hop stands, and dry hops.

Thanks. I do like the idea of all vienna base which I have done in the past.

My recent APAs have been 5.4 mash pH with over 200 ppm sulfate so I think it will be all about getting my hop schedule right. Hoppy beers have always been my weakness and I am usually disappointed in them. My malty or balanced beers usually turn out great. 

[Wort-H.O.G.]

some of my favorite Pale ales Ive made are with german malts.  I think either the all vienna or the vienna and pils is good...just different results. not sure what exactly you feel you are missing, but i'd focus on water profile and hop schedule. i like my IPA and PA dry but with a nice moderate malt taste somewhere in the sip. otherwise, its can seem thin or all hops-and that's not my favorite. i usually target 100-150 ppm sulfate in my pale, over 200 in my IPA. PH 5.4. i too use late hope additions, hop stands, and dry hops.

Thanks. I do like the idea of all vienna base which I have done in the past.

My recent APAs have been 5.4 mash pH with over 200 ppm sulfate so I think it will be all about getting my hop schedule right. Hoppy beers have always been my weakness and I am usually disappointed in them. My malty or balanced beers usually turn out great.

feel your pain. I saw significant improvement in mine after doing above, and using later additions and more hops than i thought/or beersmith said i need to hit target IBU. so much variables in IBU - how fresh hops are, utilization, etc.

[Iliff Ave]

If I was to go the all vienna route, would you suggest 100% or a small portion of crystal malt in there?

[Wort-H.O.G.]

If I was to go the all vienna route, would you suggest 100% or a small portion of crystal malt in there?

i'd say do both..each has their own positive in my opinion. I really like the contributions from carared sometimes, so i will use some on select PA's or IPA's. key for me is finishing dry, like 1.010 or lower, so I manage additions with this in mind.

[Iliff Ave]

If I was to go the all vienna route, would you suggest 100% or a small portion of crystal malt in there?

i'd say do both..each has their own positive in my opinion. I really like the contributions from carared sometimes, so i will use some on select PA's or IPA's. key for me is finishing dry, like 1.010 or lower, so I manage additions with this in mind.

I somehow missed your recipe post  . That is helpful and looks similar to what I want to achieve

[Wort-H.O.G.]

If I was to go the all vienna route, would you suggest 100% or a small portion of crystal malt in there?

i'd say do both..each has their own positive in my opinion. I really like the contributions from carared sometimes, so i will use some on select PA's or IPA's. key for me is finishing dry, like 1.010 or lower, so I manage additions with this in mind.

 somehow missed your recipe post  . That is helpful and looks similar to what I want to achieve

yes sir- it kind of seemed so and so thought i would provide it as example.

[Iliff Ave]

If I was to go the all vienna route, would you suggest 100% or a small portion of crystal malt in there?

i'd say do both..each has their own positive in my opinion. I really like the contributions from carared sometimes, so i will use some on select PA's or IPA's. key for me is finishing dry, like 1.010 or lower, so I manage additions with this in mind.

 somehow missed your recipe post  . That is helpful and looks similar to what I want to achieve

yes sir- it kind of seemed so and so thought i would provide it as example.

That hop schedule is great! I may do something almost identical with Centennial, Cascade, and Citra and call it good. You have been a huge help. Thinking all vienna with a bit of crystal malt.

[blatz]

does look good.  no bittering addition at all.  cool.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

sending a bottle of this to Jon (HoosierBrew) in our beer swap ...he can be the judge 

[HoosierBrew]

sending a bottle of this to Jon (HoosierBrew) in our beer swap ...he can be the judge 

Can't wait. Sounds tasty !

[cascadesrunner]

I have had one of Ken's Vienna recipes and it was phenomenal.  You won't be disappointed.

[Iliff Ave]

Okay here is draft #2 with Ken's hop schedule (with the exception of 1/2 oz of citra at the end). Sorry to steal it but I really think it will deliver what I am looking for.

11# 4 oz Schill Vienna
4 oz Weyermann Caramunich I

1 oz Centennial 15 min
1 oz Cascade 15 min

1/2 oz Citra 5 min
1 oz Palisade 5 min
1 oz Cascade 5 min

Cascade Dry hop

~46 IBUs for 1.055 beer

I am not sure about the hop types other than cascade. The last pale ale that I did and really like had simcoe, cascade, & palisade so I may go down that road.

 

[Wort-H.O.G.]

I'm biased but looks good!


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