Author Topic: New to all grain a few ?'s  (Read 1686 times)

Offline wvmtneer

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New to all grain a few ?'s
« on: October 04, 2015, 09:41:36 PM »
Like the title says.
-I understand that you add 1 to 1.3 quarts to 1 lbs of grain for the strike water to be added to the mash tun.
-I also understand that the strike water should be 10-15 deg hotter than the mash temp is when resting in order to raise the mash to the desired rest temp.
 
The part of it that I am confused about is after the rest of the mash and you start the mash out with hotter water before the sparge is how do you determine the volume of water needed to add for mash out?

Also after said volume of water is determined for mash out to raise temp. How do I determine the volume needed to be added to the HLT for sparging?

I'm probably making this harder than it is but I'm kind of perplexed about this and I don't want to over fill or dilute it in some way. All help is greatly appreciated!

Offline narvin

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 09:46:11 PM »
Skip the mash out; it's not necessary.  Brewing software or online calculators can give you an estimate for hot water infusions to raise the mash temperature, but in my experience it takes a lot of water to raise the mash to 170.  Just go directly to the sparge.
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Offline denny

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 10:52:38 PM »
All of the following relates to batch sparging....

skip the mashout...it's not needed

to determine the amount of sparge water...after you run off the mash, measure how much you have in the kettle.  subtract that from your total boil volume.  The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.  Yes, it's that easy!

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Offline wvmtneer

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 11:11:09 PM »
All of the following relates to batch sparging....

skip the mashout...it's not needed

to determine the amount of sparge water...after you run off the mash, measure how much you have in the kettle.  subtract that from your total boil volume.  The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.  Yes, it's that easy!

So you recommend to drain the mash after vorlaufing until empty then sparging until final volume is met? I thought you were suppose to sparge after vorlaufing and not let the grain bed go dry. I may not be following you correctly.

Offline charles1968

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 11:41:23 PM »
Have you got any brewing software to help plan/design the recipe? It should give all your water volumes: total liquor (water) to prepare; mash volume; sparge volume; target boil volume; amount in fermenter, etc.

The water to grain ratio in the mash isn't critical. I tend to use 6 litres water per kilo of grain. Leaves only a small amount for a quick sparge.

I've read that exposing the hot grain to air is bad & hence you need to keep the liquid above the grain, but I'm not sure if this is true or yet another brewing myth.

Offline TexasHumuluslupulushead

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2015, 12:51:57 AM »
Like the title says.
-I understand that you add 1 to 1.3 quarts to 1 lbs of grain for the strike water to be added to the mash tun.
-I also understand that the strike water should be 10-15 deg hotter than the mash temp is when resting in order to raise the mash to the desired rest temp.
 
The part of it that I am confused about is after the rest of the mash and you start the mash out with hotter water before the sparge is how do you determine the volume of water needed to add for mash out?

Also after said volume of water is determined for mash out to raise temp. How do I determine the volume needed to be added to the HLT for sparging?

I'm probably making this harder than it is but I'm kind of perplexed about this and I don't want to over fill or dilute it in some way. All help is greatly appreciated!

I use Sparge Pal App from the apple store with great results
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.    -- Dean Martin

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2015, 01:00:52 AM »
So you recommend to drain the mash after vorlaufing until empty then sparging until final volume is met? I thought you were suppose to sparge after vorlaufing and not let the grain bed go dry. I may not be following you correctly.

What you are talking about is true sparging.  It is also known as continuous or "fly" sparging.  The technique that Denny is recommending is simpler to execute correctly and more lauter tun design agnostic.  It's known as batch sparging even though sparging in the truest sense does not occur (sparging is derived from the Latin word spargere, which means to scatter or sprinkle).   Batch sparging is a modification of a much older technique known as parti-gyle brewing.  In parti-gyle brewing, the sweet wort from the mash was "runoff" after the rest.  The mash tun was refilled with hot liquor (water), and a second runoff was performed. This process was often repeated several times to create several different strength gyles (worts).  The batch sparging technique combines all of the gyles into an entire.  Depending on the size of the batch, batch sparging can be a much faster process than continuous sparging.

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 01:07:18 AM »
By the way, if you want to learn the gory details of how to step a mash using boiling water infusions, I detailed the mathematics involved in this post: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=23324.msg297750#msg297750

Offline wvmtneer

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 01:17:04 AM »
So you recommend to drain the mash after vorlaufing until empty then sparging until final volume is met? I thought you were suppose to sparge after vorlaufing and not let the grain bed go dry. I may not be following you correctly.

What you are talking about is true sparging.  It is also known as continuous or "fly" sparging.  The technique that Denny is recommending is simpler to execute correctly and more lauter tun design agnostic.  It's known as batch sparging even though sparging in the truest sense does not occur (sparging is derived from the Latin word spargere, which means to scatter or sprinkle).   Batch sparging is a modification of a much older technique known as parti-gyle brewing.  In parti-gyle brewing, the sweet wort from the mash was "runoff" after the rest.  The mash tun was refilled with hot liquor (water), and a second runoff was performed. This process was often repeated several times to create several different strength gyles (worts).  The batch sparging technique combines all of the gyles into an entire.  Depending on the size of the batch, batch sparging can be a much faster process than continuous sparging.

That makes sense. Thanks!

Offline denny

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 04:15:50 PM »
All of the following relates to batch sparging....

skip the mashout...it's not needed

to determine the amount of sparge water...after you run off the mash, measure how much you have in the kettle.  subtract that from your total boil volume.  The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.  Yes, it's that easy!

So you recommend to drain the mash after vorlaufing until empty then sparging until final volume is met? I thought you were suppose to sparge after vorlaufing and not let the grain bed go dry. I may not be following you correctly.

You;re thinking of fly sparging.  Most people these days batch sparge.  Check out www.dennybrew.com or this...http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/advanced/how-to-brew-beer/ which is based on my method and equipment.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 04:16:44 PM »
I've read that exposing the hot grain to air is bad & hence you need to keep the liquid above the grain, but I'm not sure if this is true or yet another brewing myth.

If that's the wrong way to do it, I've made 487 batches of bad beer and won some awards for it!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 04:19:33 PM »
So you recommend to drain the mash after vorlaufing until empty then sparging until final volume is met? I thought you were suppose to sparge after vorlaufing and not let the grain bed go dry. I may not be following you correctly.

What you are talking about is true sparging.  It is also known as continuous or "fly" sparging.  The technique that Denny is recommending is simpler to execute correctly and more lauter tun design agnostic.  It's known as batch sparging even though sparging in the truest sense does not occur (sparging is derived from the Latin word spargere, which means to scatter or sprinkle).   Batch sparging is a modification of a much older technique known as parti-gyle brewing.  In parti-gyle brewing, the sweet wort from the mash was "runoff" after the rest.  The mash tun was refilled with hot liquor (water), and a second runoff was performed. This process was often repeated several times to create several different strength gyles (worts).  The batch sparging technique combines all of the gyles into an entire.  Depending on the size of the batch, batch sparging can be a much faster process than continuous sparging.

Ya know, Maerk, you have got to find another way to say that.  when you say batch sparging is not true sparging, you may be technically correct based on the origin pf the word, but the process accomplishes the same thing...removing sugars from the mash.  It also implies that there's something wrong \with batch sparging, even though you go on to extol it's virtues.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2015, 04:55:36 PM »
Ya know, Mark, you have got to find another way to say that.  when you say batch sparging is not true sparging, you may be technically correct based on the origin pf the word, but the process accomplishes the same thing...removing sugars from the mash.  It also implies that there's something wrong \with batch sparging, even though you go on to extol it's virtues.

Well, batch sparging is misnomer because the process is not technically sparging.  The process is more accurately defined as multiple-infusion lautering. Lautering is the process of separating the sweet wort from the grain.  Sparging is a method of lautering that involves sprinkling the wort with water.  Pouring water into a mash tun, stirring, and draining is not sparging.  It's effectively making a second (or third) infusion mash, and running it off.  That differentiation does not make the process inferior.  It just makes the process technically not sparging.  The method is still an effective way to lauter a mash bed.  It just needs a name that is not a misnomer.

Sparging works via displacement.  The technique that you champion works via dilution. A lot of people refer to continuous sparging as German sparging, but that too is a misnomer.  Sparging was invented by the Scots.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 04:57:56 PM by S. cerevisiae »

evil_morty

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2015, 05:18:13 PM »
if you have the space in your mash tun you could also just not sparge at all and mash thin.  but you'll want to make sure you are on top of your pH b/c the grain will very likely not be able to acidify your mash enough in this case.

I mash as thin as I can and then do a small "batch sparge" ;) to obtain my total pre-boil volume.

Offline wvmtneer

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Re: New to all grain a few ?'s
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2015, 07:44:26 PM »
All of the following relates to batch sparging....

skip the mashout...it's not needed

to determine the amount of sparge water...after you run off the mash, measure how much you have in the kettle.  subtract that from your total boil volume.  The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.  Yes, it's that easy!
If I do it as described would you recommend sparging the rest with 170 degree water?

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