Author Topic: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times  (Read 2194 times)

Offline Kit B

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Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« on: October 07, 2015, 03:33:50 PM »
I've been researching step mashing & decoctions...
Please, don't try to fill my head with nonsense like "Decoctions aren't necessary & don't matter".
I'm looking for honest help, from brewers that have experience with decoctions, based on Kolbach index & other factors...Not experimental, "I think this is how it works" decoctions.
I'm not trying to insult anyone...I just don't want this thread derailed, because I know decoctions & step mashing matter & no one is going to sway me.

Does anyone have a solid formula for calculating rest times, based on percentage of nitrogen or protein content?
Does anyone have information that points to specific beta-amylase rest & alpha-amylase rest temperatures & times, after employing 103*F phytase/beta-glucanase rest & a 130*F protease/peptidase rests?
How about rest temps/times, for the decocted portion of the mash?

Any help with concrete data or formulas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Kit
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2015, 03:39:52 PM »
I could tell you my standard process, and feed you beer that proves that it works, but I don't have formulae or calculations to back up why.  Too bad Kai doesn't hang out on here anymore, he's a wealth of knowledge in this area.
Dave

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Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2015, 03:41:12 PM »
Yeah...He kinda disappeared.
I wish he was here.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

RPIScotty

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2015, 03:48:51 PM »

Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2015, 03:52:23 PM »
Yes...I've read Kai's wiki, fairly extensively & was unable to find anything that relates to rest times, as they pertain to protein content.
Unless, maybe I missed it???
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

RPIScotty

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2015, 03:54:24 PM »
Yes...I've read Kai's wiki, fairly extensively & was unable to find anything that relates to rest times, as they pertain to protein content.
Unless, maybe I missed it???

All the graphs show rests with respect to temperature and time.

Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2015, 03:56:06 PM »
Sure...Sure...
I'm trying to find data that pertains to Kolbach index & says "This is why", rather than blindly following something that doesn't necessarily pertain to the batch of grain I'm using.

But, thank you, for your reply!
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline denny

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 04:13:10 PM »
I've been researching step mashing & decoctions...
Please, don't try to fill my head with nonsense like "Decoctions aren't necessary & don't matter".
I'm looking for honest help, from brewers that have experience with decoctions, based on Kolbach index & other factors...Not experimental, "I think this is how it works" decoctions.
I'm not trying to insult anyone...I just don't want this thread derailed, because I know decoctions & step mashing matter & no one is going to sway me.

Does anyone have a solid formula for calculating rest times, based on percentage of nitrogen or protein content?
Does anyone have information that points to specific beta-amylase rest & alpha-amylase rest temperatures & times, after employing 103*F phytase/beta-glucanase rest & a 130*F protease/peptidase rests?
How about rest temps/times, for the decocted portion of the mash?

Any help with concrete data or formulas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Kit

Would you be willing to discuss how you KNOW they make a difference?  I'd like to know if there's something I'm missing.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 04:31:44 PM »
Hmmm...
Where to start...Let's see...

Here's a good start...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1999.tb00020.x/pdf

There are so many reasons to do step mashing...
When I've read through articles & experiments that make comparisons, they are typically configured in such a way that they are inherently flawed & seem to be TRYING to disprove the practice.
When decoctions are used correctly, you can not only taste the results, but you can smell, see & feel the results.
A simple single infusion with melanoidin malt will never get you in the ballpark of a correctly-executed triple decoction mash.
It's just not chemically, or physically possible.
We can disagree about this, forever.
It's not going to change the nature of the enzymatic activity that takes place.

If you're brewing a 75% Rahr 2-row beer, that's heavily hopped, it's probably not going to benefit you.

If you're brewing a 90% Floor malted Bohemian Pilsner beer, you're going to notice the difference, without even trying.
If you're doing a festbier that's based on a high percentage of Vienna malt, you're going to notice.

Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 04:41:28 PM »
Now...when I mention flawed experiments, I'm referring to the practices that I often see, in which the brewer does a single decoction, to create a temperature jump from 14X*F to 15X*F.
That's complete nonsense...Of course the decoction batch failed.
The brewer set it up to fail.

When I'm talking about decoctions...I'm talking about doing the real work...Nothing half-assed.
You need to actually employ the correct temperature steps, for the correct times, to make a real difference.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 04:47:18 PM »
Or...You see things, like this:

"...The morning of brewing, we also had further discussion that took place regarding the actual mash times. Again, as to allow for maximum time consistency for each batch, we agreed that the mash rest time for each would be 60 minutes of the entire wort and grist together (including the decoction times. The decoction times and mash schedules were changed at the beginning of the brew day based on discussion and what seemed to be the best way to abate variability. In the end, we mashed each one for 60 minutes. Bring on the questions and comments, we do have reasoning..."

By ruining rest times & temperatures, you make the experiment flawed...Period.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2015, 05:16:03 PM »
When decoctions are used correctly, you can not only taste the results, but you can smell, see & feel the results.
A simple single infusion with melanoidin malt will never get you in the ballpark of a correctly-executed triple decoction mash.
It's just not chemically, or physically possible.
We can disagree about this, forever.
It's not going to change the nature of the enzymatic activity that takes place.

If you're brewing a 75% Rahr 2-row beer, that's heavily hopped, it's probably not going to benefit you.

If you're brewing a 90% Floor malted Bohemian Pilsner beer, you're going to notice the difference, without even trying.
If you're doing a festbier that's based on a high percentage of Vienna malt, you're going to notice.

How can you know when a decoction mash is done correctly, such that you gain the sensory benefits, if you do not know the formulas necessary to correctly decoction mash? How could you know whether the decoction mash was done incorrectly or inefficiently yet still produced optimum results?

I am not among those who disbelieve in the merits of a decoction mash but your defense of the process is lacking. Decoction mashing is not a superior process or even produces recognizable results merely because there are chemical or physical processes involved. I could kick my mash tun every three minutes during the mash and cause a physical process through vibration but that does not mean the beer will be noticeably different for it.

I am not sure the formulas you seek exist. Most decoction mash schedules are dialed into the particular recipe/ingredients, brewhouse capabilities and brewer's preferences through trial and error.
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Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2015, 05:18:30 PM »
If I follow Kai's instructions, the results speak for themselves.
I am simply asking for mathematical data, to back up the derivation of rest times.

I have to believe the data exists, somewhere.
It's math & chemistry...Not magic.

"Most decoction mash schedules are dialed into the particular recipe/ingredients, brewhouse capabilities and brewer's preferences through trial and error"

To a point...But, these schedules are typically derived through the use of chemistry & mathematics...Not wholly trial & error.
They wouldn't waste hectoliters of wort, trying to dial in & then try again with a different batch of malt that is of a different spec...They definitely calculate rest times & temperatures, based on malt specifications & chemistry.
And, that's specifically what my original questions are in reference to.
If no one here knows the math, I can delete this thread & go elsewhere.
But, I have a feeling someone out there knows.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:31:58 PM by Kit B »
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline Kit B

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2015, 05:41:17 PM »
No swords, here...
I'm on a search for knowledge & don't want to be side-tracked by nonsense.
I'm a no-nonsense kind of guy.

Not everyone is willing to have a real dialogue.
When I ask a question & get the same derailing nonsense that I see every time a similar question pops up, it bothers me.
When I see lies spread to new brewers, telling them that a single infusion is all they'll ever need, it bothers me.

I have a firm belief that most of the decoction experiments I've seen are flawed.
That's not a crime, or insult.
I just believe they are flawed.

If you don't have data, you can say, "I don't have the data you seek".
It's OK to do that.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline denny

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Re: Step Mashing & Calculating Rest Times
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2015, 05:42:13 PM »
Hmmm...
Where to start...Let's see...

Here's a good start...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1999.tb00020.x/pdf

There are so many reasons to do step mashing...
When I've read through articles & experiments that make comparisons, they are typically configured in such a way that they are inherently flawed & seem to be TRYING to disprove the practice.
When decoctions are used correctly, you can not only taste the results, but you can smell, see & feel the results.
A simple single infusion with melanoidin malt will never get you in the ballpark of a correctly-executed triple decoction mash.
It's just not chemically, or physically possible.
We can disagree about this, forever.
It's not going to change the nature of the enzymatic activity that takes place.

If you're brewing a 75% Rahr 2-row beer, that's heavily hopped, it's probably not going to benefit you.

If you're brewing a 90% Floor malted Bohemian Pilsner beer, you're going to notice the difference, without even trying.
If you're doing a festbier that's based on a high percentage of Vienna malt, you're going to notice.

If blind tasters could taste any of the things you're mentioning, I'd agree with you.  Until that happens, I can't.  Thanks for your thoughts.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell