[ynotbrusum]

I have always commented "no DMS" when judging (because I don't find it except in the rarest situations), but maybe it is superfluous for judging comments....

[beersk]

My Cousin Vinnie quotes aside, this is good news and a good thread. Thanks for your good work, Marshall!

[erockrph]

I do want to point out again that boil length is only going to be correlated to DMS volatilization for a given kettle setup. Marshall's kettle is able to reach 9% boil off in 30 min; if you're boiling off significantly less than that you may need to boil longer.

is it the rate or total volume that is important here?  and is that an hourly rate, or total?  I'm sorry I don't see that info in the write up?  Man that is quick boil off - i boil off about 2 gal an hour, 15gal starting BV.  But then again i guess it would be an even higher rate if starting at 8.

I average 32% boiloff per hour.  'Course, I'm only brewing 1.7 gallons at a time, too.

Boiloff rates in % are not very helpful, honestly.  Need gallons/hour.

In this case, I'd wager that boiloff rate is a more accurate marker than absolute boiloff (i.e., gallons/hour). 8 gallons of wort is going to have twice as much SMM as 4 gallons of wort. If you're losing 1 gallon/hour in each, I'm thinking that the 4-gallon batch will blow off all its SMM about twice as fast as the 8-gallon batch.

Of course, the chemistry is likely much more complex. Things like this are rarely perfectly linear.

[toby]

I have always commented "no DMS" when judging (because I don't find it except in the rarest situations), but maybe it is superfluous for judging comments....

It's something you really don't need to mention unless a) it's there, or b) it's not unusual to find it in the style.  So, if you're drinking some sort of light american lager or pre-prohibition pilsner and don't detect any, it would be appropriate to mention it.

[ynotbrusum]

I have always commented "no DMS" when judging (because I don't find it except in the rarest situations), but maybe it is superfluous for judging comments....

It's something you really don't need to mention unless a) it's there, or b) it's not unusual to find it in the style.  So, if you're drinking some sort of light american lager or pre-prohibition pilsner and don't detect any, it would be appropriate to mention it.

I do the same with diacetyl - of course that I frequently find in abundance!

[brulosopher]

I'm so glad you all found this information interesting. I have plans to send off more samples of different xBmt beers for lab testing, should be pretty fascinating!

Its funny but even after reading it I still had that feeling of irrational doubt. Its amazing how being repeatedly told that something is out there, even if youve never seen it, can stick in your mind even after the light is turned on and you see that there's no boogeyman.

My next two brews are pils lagers and have been adjusted to 60min boils.

When I first started this xBmt series, I felt a similar sense of doubt. Having brewed so many beers that should have been f##ked up yet weren't is certainly decreasing my trepidation. But yeah, old habits die hard.

I wonder how much DMS is in unboiled wort.

So do I! I was chatting with someone yesterday who was actually at MBAA and struck up a conversation with the folks from Weyermann about this data. Really curious to hear about that!

60 minute boils from here on out, starting with the German pils that's coming up soon.

I've been doing this for the last couple years without issue, so I'll be boiling for even less from here on out

I wonder how much DMS is in unboiled wort.

Also, I wonder how much SMM remains in the short-boil beer compared to the 90-minute one. In other words, does the 30-minute boil drive everything off, or does something else in the process keep the SMM from being converted to DMS later on down the line.

Another question might be, is there SMM in modern pils malt? If so is there enough to make any detectable difference?

I'm pretty sure it's there, at least based on the preliminary info my contact got from Weyermann, I just think it volatizes much quicker than we conventionally believed... like, before the wort even reaches a boil.

I wonder how much DMS is in unboiled wort.

You definitely still need to boil hard, with no lid.  On my last cream ale, I purposely boiled weakly with the lid on, and yes I got DME.  It wasn't strong, but it's there.

I'm not convinced we definitely need to boil all that hard... xBmts to come!

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Well, I eat crow.

Cheers to your humility!

DMS does certainly exist. A few years back a buddy got a bag of malt that he used on two consecutive brews. Both rotten with DMS. He bought a new bag of the same malt and maltster, but from a different shop, and there was no DMS. Maybe he just had terrible luck.

Of course it exists, though I'm becoming more and more convinced what most beer evaluators/judges think is DMS probably isn't. That's not to bash judges, I am one after all, it's just that we often find what we are looking for. I think it's humbling and generally noble to constantly doubt what we think we know.

One of the things I always enjoyed about Mythbusters is that if a myth was busted, they often took the extra step to produce the desired results. A lot of the xBmt's target brewing myths and many seem to be showing no significant difference between the beers. A cool followup would be to see what it does take to actually make a discernible difference.

It seems counter-intuitive to try to make bad beer intentionally, but I think that may help those that are having a hard time letting go of the old myths. For example, if a short boil doesn't cause DMS, then what does? A covered boil? Only certain types of grain? Slow chilling? Covered chilling? I think that is the next step if you really want to drill down further.

As always, the hallmark of good science is that it prompts more question than it answers. You're doing great work, Marshall. Thanks for putting it out there for everyone!

We definitely plan to start doing this kind of stuff, just gotta knock out a few more single variables first. Also, despite the common reference, I don't view myself as a mythbuster  at all, in fact the impetus for starting his series, perhaps surprisingly, was to demonstrate how important certain variables were. I expected to make much more s***ty beer than I have.

I have always commented "no DMS" when judging (because I don't find it except in the rarest situations), but maybe it is superfluous for judging comments....

I alluded to it in a previous comment, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'm not convinced judges, when they comment on off flavors, are always really picking it up. Sure, there may be a few instances where it's super obvious, but I think certain ingredients sometimes give the impression of something that, since the judge is focused on it, gets misinterpreted as an off flavor. Hope that doesn't come across as too cynical...

[Wort-H.O.G.]

i did 60 minute boil on my german pils 13 days ago. samples taste great-no hints of DMS detected.

fast ferment also-clean as whistle.

[dmtaylor]

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Very possible.  I guess I hadn't even considered that but it may be the truth.

I alluded to it in a previous comment, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'm not convinced judges, when they comment on off flavors, are always really picking it up. Sure, there may be a few instances where it's super obvious, but I think certain ingredients sometimes give the impression of something that, since the judge is focused on it, gets misinterpreted as an off flavor. Hope that doesn't come across as too cynical...

I'm out there on the limb right there with you.  There's a few excellent judges out there.  There's thousands of judges who are wrong more often than they are right.  And then of course, every single one of them is human.  It's not cynical.  It's true!

[HoosierBrew]

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Very possible.  I guess I hadn't even considered that but it may be the truth.

I don't know. I make a cream ale with flaked maize and the corn gives it a slight sweetness, but I don't get DMS from it. It's a pretty clean beer.

[toby]

Of course it exists, though I'm becoming more and more convinced what most beer evaluators/judges think is DMS probably isn't.

I think the same thing with diacetyl.  There are certain caramel-aromas that many people detect as butterscotch and automatically go to "diacetyl".  DMS and diacetyl are the boogeyman with some judges.  They're expecting them to be hiding under the bed, so they think they see them all the time.

[toby]

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Very possible.  I guess I hadn't even considered that but it may be the truth.

I don't know. I make a cream ale with flaked maize and the corn gives it a slight sweetness, but I don't get DMS from it. It's a pretty clean beer.

His point was more that some people smell 'corn' and think 'DMS' when it may literally be corn.

[HoosierBrew]

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Very possible.  I guess I hadn't even considered that but it may be the truth.

I don't know. I make a cream ale with flaked maize and the corn gives it a slight sweetness, but I don't get DMS from it. It's a pretty clean beer.

His point was more that some people smell 'corn' and think 'DMS' when it may literally be corn.

I misread, Toby.. That could well be the case.

[klickitat jim]

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Very possible.  I guess I hadn't even considered that but it may be the truth.

I alluded to it in a previous comment, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'm not convinced judges, when they comment on off flavors, are always really picking it up. Sure, there may be a few instances where it's super obvious, but I think certain ingredients sometimes give the impression of something that, since the judge is focused on it, gets misinterpreted as an off flavor. Hope that doesn't come across as too cynical...

I'm out there on the limb right there with you.  There's a few excellent judges out there.  There's thousands of judges who are wrong more often than they are right.  And then of course, every single one of them is human.  It's not cynical.  It's true!

It seems to me that BJCP judging is designed to work best in a specific setting, that being the comparison of a beer to that beer's BJCP style guide. The farther you stretch it from that setting the less effective it is. Try giving a panel of judges 3 or 4 commercial examples and have them guess the sub category they belong in. Odds are they might get one right. Because its not designed to work that way.

Most judges, I think, are pretty good at tasting and explaining what they taste. Most know the basic off flavors. The trouble comes when its time to give suggested remedies to the off flavors. If a subtle flavor is misinterpreted as an off flavor, then a suggestion is given which the brewer already does... ooops. Example, corn flavor from corn in the recipe,  interpreted as DMS, then suggestion given to not cover the boil, but the brewer already doesn't cover... results in "judges suck". One mistake, leads to another, leads to all of us being judged.

[blatz]

Example, corn flavor from corn in the recipe,  interpreted as DMS, then suggestion given to not cover the boil, but the brewer already doesn't cover... results in "judges suck". One mistake, leads to another, leads to all of us being judged.

hence why in writing your feedback, you should never assume anything.  write " if you used a lot of pils malt and covered the boil, try not covering... etc"   

there's ways to say things that don't make the recipient defensive or make yourself sound omnipotent.

[hopfenundmalz]

Cream Ale traditionally has a charge of flaked maize, sure it wasn't that you were picking up?

Very possible.  I guess I hadn't even considered that but it may be the truth.

I don't know. I make a cream ale with flaked maize and the corn gives it a slight sweetness, but I don't get DMS from it. It's a pretty clean beer.

There are corn aromas that are not creamed corn/DMS aroma. I always shake my head when I get a comment on a CAP or Cream Ale saying DMS from corm, when it just smells like corn and has that corn sweetness. Does anyone get DMS from a corn tortilla shell?