Author Topic: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C  (Read 777 times)

Offline blatz

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Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« on: October 08, 2015, 08:26:48 PM »
came across this, don't know if anyone has seen this, but was interesting:

http://www.port66.co.uk/whirlpool-hopping-80c-vs-100c/

I would have been interested on DMS also in this experiment.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2015, 09:40:55 PM »
Interesting.  I have used the 175°F (80°C) addition before after many brewers mentioned that the late hop character was better than a late boil addition.  I think the article in the link has one flaw in that he measured the IBUs in the 100 and 80c beers and found the 100c beer higher in IBUs (not sure on the method of measurement but whatever).  But I don't think "IBUs" are what people are after when they do a hopstand/whirlpool addition.  They're trying to get aroma and/or flavor by having the hop oils stick around in the beer longer by adding them to cooler wort so that the oils don't burn off.  Am I right on that?  I'm not a huge hophead so I don't know. 

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2015, 09:43:58 PM »
I wp at 170 for 30 with the intent of max hop flavor for minimum bitterness

Offline dilluh98

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2015, 09:55:56 PM »
Interesting.  I have used the 175°F (80°C) addition before after many brewers mentioned that the late hop character was better than a late boil addition.  I think the article in the link has one flaw in that he measured the IBUs in the 100 and 80c beers and found the 100c beer higher in IBUs (not sure on the method of measurement but whatever).  But I don't think "IBUs" are what people are after when they do a hopstand/whirlpool addition.  They're trying to get aroma and/or flavor by having the hop oils stick around in the beer longer by adding them to cooler wort so that the oils don't burn off.  Am I right on that?  I'm not a huge hophead so I don't know. 

I think you're right. To me, calculating IBUs makes sense for boil additions but there's not a lot of agreement on how adding whirlpool or dry hops contribute to the IBU number. In some sense, this comes down to trial and error for what your preference is in terms of flavor and aroma. I think someone has posted on another IPA thread about there strategy of just getting the IBU to where you want it with a single 60 min addition of a clean bittering hop (Warrior, Magnum, etc) and then play around with 0 min, whirlpool and dry hop to get the flavor/aroma effect you are after.

For me, and this is just a personal preference, I've gotten a bit fatigued lately by the whole super-West Coast IPA that's incredibly loaded up on the late hop additions (hop bursting comes to mind) to the point where the beer tastes sweet without any presence of a straight bittering backbone, let alone any contribution from the malt. Sure it smells fantastic and tastes like liquid Starburst candy but it gets cloying and unbalanced the more of this style I drink. To each there own! =]

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2015, 10:06:37 PM »
Interesting.  I have used the 175°F (80°C) addition before after many brewers mentioned that the late hop character was better than a late boil addition.  I think the article in the link has one flaw in that he measured the IBUs in the 100 and 80c beers and found the 100c beer higher in IBUs (not sure on the method of measurement but whatever).  But I don't think "IBUs" are what people are after when they do a hopstand/whirlpool addition.  They're trying to get aroma and/or flavor by having the hop oils stick around in the beer longer by adding them to cooler wort so that the oils don't burn off.  Am I right on that?  I'm not a huge hophead so I don't know. 

I think you're right. To me, calculating IBUs makes sense for boil additions but there's not a lot of agreement on how adding whirlpool or dry hops contribute to the IBU number. In some sense, this comes down to trial and error for what your preference is in terms of flavor and aroma. I think someone has posted on another IPA thread about there strategy of just getting the IBU to where you want it with a single 60 min addition of a clean bittering hop (Warrior, Magnum, etc) and then play around with 0 min, whirlpool and dry hop to get the flavor/aroma effect you are after.

For me, and this is just a personal preference, I've gotten a bit fatigued lately by the whole super-West Coast IPA that's incredibly loaded up on the late hop additions (hop bursting comes to mind) to the point where the beer tastes sweet without any presence of a straight bittering backbone, let alone any contribution from the malt. Sure it smells fantastic and tastes like liquid Starburst candy but it gets cloying and unbalanced the more of this style I drink. To each there own! =]
I hear a lot of people say that they are "over" beers like you describe and I admit that I was never really into them in the first place.  I can sit down and have a nice late-hopped IPA and really enjoy it but having 5 gallons of it on tap in my basement is not really necessary because I'm not going to drink it that fast and the hop character would fade before I finished the beer.

Offline dilluh98

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2015, 10:08:43 PM »
Agreed! Unfortunately my wife loves the stuff so I will occasionally brew one, but only 1-2 gallons of it.

Offline neddles

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2015, 10:13:33 PM »
I hop stand at 165F for 20-to 30 min. to avoid any isomerization, and like Jim, maximize hop flavor in the finished beer.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2015, 10:19:12 PM »
Agreed! Unfortunately my wife loves the stuff so I will occasionally brew one, but only 1-2 gallons of it.
Same boat.  My wife loves IPAs.  Meanwhile I'm making fesbtbiers, helles, dunkel, kolsch, alt, etc.  The issue is that she doesn't drink beer all the time so if I make her a late/dry-hopped IPA kind of thing and I tell her, "DRINK IT WHILE IT'S FRESH!", she might but she might not.  Eventually she'll say, "This doesn't taste the same...".  Right.  :P

Offline blatz

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2015, 10:32:00 PM »
Ken the intent of measuring the IBUs was to determine if there was actual isomerization with a hotter whirlpool.  Beer smith even accounts for this.

Dependent on what you want (only flavor/aroma or bitterness) you should either drop or leave the temp alone before adding your whirlpool additions.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2015, 10:44:59 PM »
Up front - I haven't done a triangle on this. It's pretty interesting, Paul, but I can't say that's been my experience - I've definitely gotten the higher bitterness at higher temps but not clearly better flavor and aroma by any means. I have to wonder if the tasters, by getting more bitterness from the flameout whirlpool perceived the beer as more 'IPA-like' and voted the beer as 'more hoppy' than actually assessing the true flavor and aroma apart from the bitterness.  But my palate is pretty decent and I feel that hopstands at flameout made a good beer that was more bitter, but by no means with better aroma and flavor than beers I make now steeped @ 175F.  Also, I add a healthy bittering charge in the kettle when I use this technique, to avoid a 'sweet up front' IPA.  erockrph is getting an IPA made this way in the swap (70 IBU in the kettle) so I'm curious to get his feedback. Regardless, my brewing isn't locked into much - I change techniques and try new things all the time. Get locked into anything in brewing and you get passed by before you know it.    ;)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 12:41:29 AM by HoosierBrew »
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2015, 11:51:49 PM »
Ken the intent of measuring the IBUs was to determine if there was actual isomerization with a hotter whirlpool.  Beer smith even accounts for this.

Dependent on what you want (only flavor/aroma or bitterness) you should either drop or leave the temp alone before adding your whirlpool additions.
Thanks for the clarification, Paul.  He got a pretty decent bump in IBUs between the 212 and 175 examples.  I was surprised at how big the difference was and my guess is that the additions were on the LARGE side.  Cheers.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2015, 12:45:45 AM »
At hop school Stan Hieronymus said we should try 185F for whirlpool additions. Some good flavors came out in some sensory tests.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2015, 12:54:20 AM »
Yeah he says 80 g per 10 liter or roughly 2.8oz per 2.5gal.

Agree with regard to jons comments.  I experimented a bit with hotter whirlpool hops but in trying to control bitterness settled on 185-190.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2015, 12:54:37 AM »

At hop school Stan Hieronymus said we should try 185F for whirlpool additions. Some good flavors came out in some sensory tests.

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Re: Pils Whirlpool at 80C and 100C
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2015, 01:23:19 AM »
When I want to control my IBU's to a specific value, I use a 60-minute addition, and a whirlpool addition at 170F to get flavor and aroma. It works well for those styles and allows you to dial in the bittering and flavor separately. Your flavor hops aren't constrained by your IBU's and your bittering isn't really affected by your late hops.

For my house IPA I do something different. I skip my 60-minute addition and add all my hot-side hops at flameout, then hold my hop stand for 90 minutes. I think this method really maxes out the amount of hop character you can extract. This beer ends up being pretty extreme. Also, since it's an IPA, I'm not really concerned with the number of IBU's in the finished beer (it will max out around 100 IBU depending on yeast and fermentation), so I don't have to worry about limiting isomerization. I do find that the apparent bitterness tends to be much lower than the measured IBU's for whirlpool additions, or at least less harsh.

Of course, all of this assumes that you are using a crapload of hops (I use 4oz per gallon of final kettle volume). If you're not getting enough hop character, and you're not really pushing the amount of hops, then that's the first thing to address.
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