Author Topic: first time for everything...uugghhh!  (Read 2268 times)

Offline leejoreilly

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2015, 01:15:04 PM »

I have a word of advice, and, that is, use alcohol, not StarSan to sanitize anything at this level.  StarSan is a not a full spectrum sanitizer, and you want to use an indiscriminate microbe killer at this level.  Most beer infections can can be traced back the to culture because that is when an infection has the greatest opportunity.  I keep 70% and 91% isopropyl alcohol in spray bottles for this type of stuff.  Isopropyl alcohol is only slightly more toxic to humans than ethanol.  For those who have problems with the idea of using isopropyl alcohol (it's no worse than using Star San which contains a detergent additive as its active ingredient), any 140 proof or higher clear liquor can be used as a sanitizer.

Mark, would this be a no-rinse sanitizer, or should I use some distilled water to rinse? Could I use your bleach/vinegar sanitizer instead, or does that take more time to be effective?

Offline narcout

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2015, 01:36:30 PM »
Don't rinse
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2015, 03:22:13 PM »
I am using an ax to smack those smackpacks. Is that not the right procedure?
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Offline a10t2

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2015, 04:15:07 PM »
I am using an ax to smack those smackpacks. Is that not the right procedure?

It isn't "wrong", it's just outdated information. Wyeast switched away from the 25 mL "axpacks" several years ago.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2015, 04:21:04 PM »
I am using an ax to smack those smackpacks. Is that not the right procedure?

It isn't "wrong", it's just outdated information. Wyeast switched away from the 25 mL "axpacks" several years ago.

Awesome. I think the 'machete packs' didn't go over well either.
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Offline brewday

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2015, 04:30:42 PM »
I am using an ax to smack those smackpacks. Is that not the right procedure?

It isn't "wrong", it's just outdated information. Wyeast switched away from the 25 mL "axpacks" several years ago.

Awesome. I think the 'machete packs' didn't go over well either.

I miss the old Jackhammer-packs.  But I don't miss the trips to Home Depot's tool rental department.
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Offline denny

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2015, 04:43:26 PM »
Was smacking a Wyeast pack of California Lager yeast a couple hours prior to making my starter and the top seam of the pack burst open!  Only opened about 1/2 inch or so and only a few drops of yeast came out.  Starter wort was not ready yet, so after spraying the pack down with star san, I folded it over gently and held it shut while sanitizing a small mason jar and scissors.  Carefully cut open the pack and poured the yeast into the jar. 
Then quickly made my starter and pitched the yeast from the mason jar.  Hoping everything is copasetic.  I guess time will tell when I smell/taste the starter wort prior to pitching. What a PITA!

I have a word of advice, and, that is, use alcohol, not StarSan to sanitize anything at this level.  StarSan is a not a full spectrum sanitizer, and you want to use an indiscriminate microbe killer at this level.  Most beer infections can can be traced back the to culture because that is when an infection has the greatest opportunity.  I keep 70% and 91% isopropyl alcohol in spray bottles for this type of stuff.  Isopropyl alcohol is only slightly more toxic to humans than ethanol.  For those who have problems with the idea of using isopropyl alcohol (it's no worse than using Star San which contains a detergent additive as its active ingredient), any 140 proof or higher clear liquor can be used as a sanitizer.

Mark, once again my experience disagrees with your advice.  I've used StarSan for sanitation on starters hundreds of times and never had a problem.  While it may not be ideal from a theoretical standpoint, in reality it works.
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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2015, 06:48:19 PM »
Mark, would this be a no-rinse sanitizer, or should I use some distilled water to rinse? Could I use your bleach/vinegar sanitizer instead, or does that take more time to be effective?

Alcohol is even more no-rinse than Star San.  Alcohol is the standard sanitizer for this type of work in a laboratory. 

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2015, 07:03:31 PM »
Mark, once again my experience disagrees with your advice.  I've used StarSan for sanitation on starters hundreds of times and never had a problem.  While it may not be ideal from a theoretical standpoint, in reality it works.

Well, your advice is at odds with every laboratory on the planet.  Star San is not full spectrum.  That's a well documented fact.  Not to mention that Star San is more toxic than isopropanol.  Home brewing is the only no-rinse application of dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid that I have been able to identify.  The reason why Star San foams is because the active ingredient is used to make detergents, not mention that it is corrosive to metals.

http://www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf

http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB9310467.htm

Offline denny

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2015, 07:38:32 PM »
Mark, once again my experience disagrees with your advice.  I've used StarSan for sanitation on starters hundreds of times and never had a problem.  While it may not be ideal from a theoretical standpoint, in reality it works.

Well, your advice is at odds with every laboratory on the planet.  Star San is not full spectrum.  That's a well documented fact.  Not to mention that Star San is more toxic than isopropanol.  Home brewing is the only no-rinse application of dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid that I have been able to identify.  The reason why Star San foams is because the active ingredient is used to make detergents, not mention that it is corrosive to metals.

http://www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf

http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB9310467.htm

First, it's my experience, not necessarily my advice!  And by now, you should know that being at odds with the "authorities" doesn't bother me.  I understand there may be a better way to do things.  But as long as my methods stand up to my own scrutiny, they're good enough for me.  I post about what I do so that others can try it if they like.  I don't try to convince anyone that mine is the best, or only, way to do things.  It's simply my way.  I do appreciate your info so that I can compare the best practices you post to my own methods and decide if the info is relevant to me.
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 12:55:27 AM »
Mark, stupid question, but is there any reason not to use rubbing alcohol as a general-purpose no-rinse sanitizer? If it were that simple why isn't everyone using it?
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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2015, 02:03:01 AM »
Mark, stupid question, but is there any reason not to use rubbing alcohol as a general-purpose no-rinse sanitizer? If it were that simple why isn't everyone using it?

The other sanitizers are cheaper when a large volume of sanitizer is needed as well as the fact that alcohol is highly flammable (one of its strengths in a lab). 

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2015, 02:15:55 AM »
Mark, stupid question, but is there any reason not to use rubbing alcohol as a general-purpose no-rinse sanitizer? If it were that simple why isn't everyone using it?

The other sanitizers are cheaper when a large volume of sanitizer is needed as well as the fact that alcohol is highly flammable (one of its strengths in a lab).
Ya I dont think I want to be sprizing alcohol clouds around on brew day.

Offline a10t2

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2015, 02:50:45 AM »
Ya I dont think I want to be sprizing alcohol clouds around on brew day.

I flame all my brewery glassware. Why turn down an opportunity to play with fire?
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Offline erockrph

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Re: first time for everything...uugghhh!
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2015, 03:22:31 AM »
Mark, stupid question, but is there any reason not to use rubbing alcohol as a general-purpose no-rinse sanitizer? If it were that simple why isn't everyone using it?
Rubbing ethyl alcohol has additives specifically to make it toxic for oral consumption, and isopropanol is toxic in sufficient quantities. I don't think you'd have to worry at the quantities we'd be working with, but I'm not to excited about dumping a bottle in my carboy.

Any spirits at 140 proof or higher would be sufficient, but as Mark mentioned that gets to be cost prohibitive.
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