Author Topic: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles  (Read 26937 times)

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2015, 07:17:37 PM »
Ok guys, I've never used kolsch malt (need to), but I've used Vienna in helles and liked it.  I assume the two are fairly different then ? I always assumed vienna and kolsch were fairly similar. As I think about it, I use basically the same grist for kolsch as for helles - 90 pils/10 vienna. Just curious.

dont get me wrong Jon- ive used the vienna also and its a good helles beer. but i get people chasing that unique helles lager beer aroma/flavor. to me, the kolsch malt was very bready - something very different than vienna.

not sure how it will play out with helles at say 85/15 pils/kolsch malt...but definitely curious to see.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 07:49:39 PM by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2015, 07:21:57 PM »
I'm definitely game to try it. I'm not set in stone on any recipe. Thanks for the info.
Jon H.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2015, 07:25:14 PM »
Try a blend of a pils malt and a german Pale malt. Someday I might use some best Heidelburg malt too.

WLP835 Lager X, that rhymes with Kloster Andechs.  ;)

Do you mean a pale ale malt? Best and Weyermann don't list a pale malt in their catalogs, but they do both list a pale ale malt.
Yeah, pale ale malt. It will not be like a British pale ale malt, as it is from German Barley varieties and not kilned quit as dark. Use in the 70-80 Pils range, 30-20 Pale range.

One translation of Hell is Pale.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2015, 07:28:45 PM »
Try a blend of a pils malt and a german Pale malt. Someday I might use some best Heidelburg malt too.

WLP835 Lager X, that rhymes with Kloster Andechs.  ;)

Do you mean a pale ale malt? Best and Weyermann don't list a pale malt in their catalogs, but they do both list a pale ale malt.
Yeah, pale ale malt. It will not be like a British pale ale malt, as it is from German Barley varieties and not kilned quit as dark. Use in the 70-80 Pils range, 30-20 Pale range.

One translation of Hell is Pale.

great malt. i keep 55#of avangard pale ale malt on hand and use it often.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2015, 07:41:21 PM »
I'm definitely game to try it. I'm not set in stone on any recipe. Thanks for the info.

+1

just ordered my schill kolsch malt, and already have slurry of 833 so hope to kick this recipe experiment off 10/24!
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline brewday

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2015, 07:46:48 PM »
Ok guys, I've never used kolsch malt (need to), but I've used Vienna in helles and liked it.  I assume the two are fairly different then ? I always assumed vienna and kolsch were fairly similar. As I think about it, I use basically the same grist for kolsch as for helles - 90 pils/10 vienna. Just curious.

dont get me wrong Jon- ive used the vienna also and its a good helles beer. but i get people chasing that unique helles lager beer aroma/flavor. to me, the kolsch malt was very bready - something very different then vienna.

not sure how it will play out with helles at say 85/15 pils/kolsch malt...but definitely curious to see.

Agreed.  Bready, bready, bready.  I've made the same Kolsch both ways, one Vienna and one Cologne.  For a subtle style they were significantly different.  The one with the Cologne malt was the clear winner, trust me.  ;)

I might bump it to 10-15% for Helles as you've mentioned.
Jon Weaver

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 08:15:40 PM »
Agreed.  Bready, bready, bready.  I've made the same Kolsch both ways, one Vienna and one Cologne.  For a subtle style they were significantly different.  The one with the Cologne malt was the clear winner, trust me.  ;)

I might bump it to 10-15% for Helles as you've mentioned.

Thanks for the info, man! With the grists being so similar for me (kolsch and helles), I want to brew both styles using kolsch malt. This forum rocks.
Jon H.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2015, 08:15:59 PM »
Interesting! Excited to hear how the kolsch malt compares to vienna and Avangard pale ale. I might have to look at ordering some too.

on the hops also- Kai (Braukaiser) says Weihenstephaner Original use Perle for bittering and Hallertauer for aroma additions. I'm going this route on this recipe as well-target IBU 21
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2015, 12:45:03 AM »
My understanding is this: (And everything I am saying is a matter of opinion)

Might be "Missing" in your process is Decoction Mash will draw the Melanoidin flavor out of your Pils/Vienne/Melanoidin malt, failing to do this process wastes the grain.  Debatable in many styles, however, in Munich Helles I think it is a must.

To read about that:
http://byo.com/hops/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniques  And I def. think that it would require you to use a triple decoction mash to fully capture the "Helles flavor" out of your Pils and total grain bill.

The style does not carry Munich Malt. (weird right)  Here is were It becomes strange, I understand that it is a Munich style, the original is said not to have munich malt. Crazy Right?  So I am told/read that Munich Malt will muddle or muddy up the rich pilsner flavor, because it is delicate and can be overpowered.  Pale ale malt is too thick on your palate and should not be used in the style.  At least (so I read) no more than 3% of pale ale malt.
http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile for the nay say to Munich malt in the style.

So because of that, the only experience I have had was not my own beer, but a brew session with a friend that got me into the hobby.

We did this.
Grain
76.67% Pils
9.58% Vienne
2.92% Melanoidin
2.08% Carapils
1.25% Acid
1.25% Honey (arguably not a part of the style but overall flavor was on)
6.25% Candi Sugar (attempt of an Helles Export rather than the traditional)

So here in lies the argument for me: Yeast, and ABV for a Helles

So there is Helles, Helles Export, Spezial Helles, EdelHelles, Urhelles, Urtyphelles, etc...  They all have subtle variations.  Traditionally (I believe) Helles, Helles Export, Urhelles, and Urtyphelles did not included any Munich malts.  They are only Pils.  However the Spezial (Seasonal Breweries Best so to speak) may have included anything the brewery wanted to use that was in season.  Edelhelles however was the noble variety of the style, or to remind the consumer of the "lofty, noble rank of the beer hops"

To read more on where I am getting all of that :
http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile

So Yeast to me was a big factor from what was used around that time frame, and what was popularly used in 1894.  Which leans me to learn about Muller Thurgau who was able to isolate the single yeast cell for wine and beer fermentation.  So probably multiple yeasts used to "Birth" the helles style.  So it would be difficult to really match what breweries that have 100+years of tradition.  So possibly a variety of Bavarian Yeasts were used, that were probably funky, fruity, bubblegum, clove, and dark spice characters.

With all of this being said, I think you have to brew to your taste.  Trial and "error", is just the excuse to tell your wife you gotta make another batch right?
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Offline crichards018

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2015, 01:39:12 AM »
Awesome post, thanks for sharing your progress! In my limited experience with helles I have found that melanoidin malt is really easy to overdo. I'd suggest keeping it to 1 - 1.5% of the grist.

For the yeast, I'm on a kick with 2206 at the moment and get a lot of that bagel type flavor from that yeast. I do have to wonder if getting super fresh malt may be the difference with the German breweries. We are always hearing how poorly hops handle travel and malt may experience the same type of problems to a lesser extent.

Let us know how your future trials go, helles is one of my favorite styles!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2015, 01:54:36 AM »
My understanding is this: (And everything I am saying is a matter of opinion)

Might be "Missing" in your process is Decoction Mash will draw the Melanoidin flavor out of your Pils/Vienne/Melanoidin malt, failing to do this process wastes the grain.  Debatable in many styles, however, in Munich Helles I think it is a must.

To read about that:
http://byo.com/hops/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniques  And I def. think that it would require you to use a triple decoction mash to fully capture the "Helles flavor" out of your Pils and total grain bill.

The style does not carry Munich Malt. (weird right)  Here is were It becomes strange, I understand that it is a Munich style, the original is said not to have munich malt. Crazy Right?  So I am told/read that Munich Malt will muddle or muddy up the rich pilsner flavor, because it is delicate and can be overpowered.  Pale ale malt is too thick on your palate and should not be used in the style.  At least (so I read) no more than 3% of pale ale malt.
http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile for the nay say to Munich malt in the style.

So because of that, the only experience I have had was not my own beer, but a brew session with a friend that got me into the hobby.

We did this.
Grain
76.67% Pils
9.58% Vienne
2.92% Melanoidin
2.08% Carapils
1.25% Acid
1.25% Honey (arguably not a part of the style but overall flavor was on)
6.25% Candi Sugar (attempt of an Helles Export rather than the traditional)

So here in lies the argument for me: Yeast, and ABV for a Helles

So there is Helles, Helles Export, Spezial Helles, EdelHelles, Urhelles, Urtyphelles, etc...  They all have subtle variations.  Traditionally (I believe) Helles, Helles Export, Urhelles, and Urtyphelles did not included any Munich malts.  They are only Pils.  However the Spezial (Seasonal Breweries Best so to speak) may have included anything the brewery wanted to use that was in season.  Edelhelles however was the noble variety of the style, or to remind the consumer of the "lofty, noble rank of the beer hops"

To read more on where I am getting all of that :
http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile

So Yeast to me was a big factor from what was used around that time frame, and what was popularly used in 1894.  Which leans me to learn about Muller Thurgau who was able to isolate the single yeast cell for wine and beer fermentation.  So probably multiple yeasts used to "Birth" the helles style.  So it would be difficult to really match what breweries that have 100+years of tradition.  So possibly a variety of Bavarian Yeasts were used, that were probably funky, fruity, bubblegum, clove, and dark spice characters.

With all of this being said, I think you have to brew to your taste.  Trial and "error", is just the excuse to tell your wife you gotta make another batch right?
The original Munich beers were dark, Munich malt worked with the water. Late Helles was the answer to the Pilsner style beers that swept through Europe in the 1840s. Not crazy at all.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2015, 02:56:01 AM »

[/quote]
The original Munich beers were dark, Munich malt worked with the water. Late Helles was the answer to the Pilsner style beers that swept through Europe in the 1840s. Not crazy at all.
[/quote]

1894
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2015, 03:14:27 AM »

The original Munich beers were dark, Munich malt worked with the water. Late Helles was the answer to the Pilsner style beers that swept through Europe in the 1840s. Not crazy at all.
[/quote]

1894
[/quote]
Yeah later, Pilsners became popular after PU was introduced in 1842. Water chemistry was figured out in roughly the 1880s or so. Then they could brew light beers with the light malts.

Munich malt was for the beers they brewed in before Helles was invented.
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Offline indevrede

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2015, 03:21:41 PM »
To the OP: what a fantastic post! I'm on a similar quest. Re: the 100% pils grists, did you compare brands?

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2015, 12:04:19 PM »
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