Author Topic: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles  (Read 27116 times)

rabeb25

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2015, 11:47:52 PM »
It will also be too thin bodied, which will throw it even more out of balance.
Tips:
mash is wrong
Grain bill could be better
Water is wrong
pH is wrong
Hoping is wrong

 8)

But like stated, if you like it, thats all that matters. I'm far from the expert.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:53:45 PM by rabeb25 »

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2015, 11:51:35 PM »
So, step 1: find out how to brew a perfect Helles. Step 2: brew it. Roger that

Yeah, that's my takeaway so far.

This topic is feeling like finding Keyser Söze   :o

OR Perhaps finding the Holy Grail   ::)
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Dort
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2015, 11:56:48 PM »
The last one was 145 for 90 min, Gambinus Vienna instead of Best, Ca from CaCl and SO4 instead of just SO4, and only Magnum at 60. The notes from several judges including too sweet, too dark, too much hop flavor, and a minerally note. Honey note came from Gambinus, extra 30 minutes ought to dry it a little more, no SO4 ought to drop the minerally note, and since a half ounce of magnum at 60 gave it too much flavor I figure if its going to have hop flavor it might as well be Mittelfruh.


Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2015, 12:00:18 AM »
It will also be too thin bodied, which will throw it even more out of balance.
Tips:
mash is wrong
Grain bill could be better
Water is wrong
pH is wrong
Hoping is wrong

 8)

But like stated, if you like it, thats all that matters. I'm far from the expert.
Thanks for the help!

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2015, 12:00:54 AM »
It will also be too thin bodied, which will throw it even more out of balance.
Tips:
mash is wrong
Grain bill could be better
Water is wrong
pH is wrong
Hoping is wrong

 8)

But like stated, if you like it, thats all that matters. I'm far from the expert.

hmm. here's my issue with this. when you tell someone they are wrong, there's presumption you are right. if you are right (and hell if I know-you may be) then that illustrates being an expert or coming from a position of fact.

Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline germanbrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2015, 12:09:17 AM »
It will also be too thin bodied, which will throw it even more out of balance.
Tips:
mash is wrong
Grain bill could be better
Water is wrong
pH is wrong
Hoping is wrong

 8)

But like stated, if you like it, thats all that matters. I'm far from the expert.

hmm. here's my issue with this. when you tell someone they are wrong, there's presumption you are right. if you are right (and hell if I know-you may be) then that illustrates being an expert or coming from a position of fact.

^^ This!  This is all I am saying.  None of us can brew an accurate Helles.  I'll be the first to admit it, and I'm on the quest to do it.  And that's ok...we don't need to have the answer, we need to share knowledge and work together to figure it out.  But first thing is admitting there's a problem...there's an element to it we don't know.  All good?  Then let's figure it out!  When it's said it's not an easy style to brew, it doesn't mean "I've brewed an APA that scored 40, I've graduated to brew Helles and can brew the next style on my sheet".  Brewing an accurate Helles means you've figured some stuff out.  That's cool...it's quite an accomplishment to work towards.  I wish people wouldn't trivialize that.

Offline germanbrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2015, 12:17:05 AM »
Next Monday Im brewing an Helles, and an Helles Exportbier. Will be the 4th attempt at the Helles, trying to dial it in.

1.050 | 18 IBU
9.5 lbs Best Malz Pils
1.5 lbs Best Malz Vienna
Mashed at 145F for 2hrs, target 5.3pH adjusted with lactic per Brewers Friend, 50Ca 10Mg 8Na 50CaCl 0 SO4 107 HCO3
28g Mittelfruh @60
28g Mittelfruh @ 10
2 x 1000ml Wyeast 2308 high krausen pitches
50F
Final pH target 4.3
Cold fined with gel
Bottle conditioned at 2.7 volumes, then lager in cases at 38F for a month

I guess time will tell

If you enter competitions it will have too much hop flavor and aroma from the 10 minute additions according to the judges, who have probably never tasted a fresh Helles in Bayern. If you like it, drink up!

I scored 44 in competition on a Helles that had 15 minute hop addition and, to me, tasted slightly mildly reminiscent of a Helles and had the merit that it was light in color.  I wouldn't use the standard every day BJCP competition as the litmus test for Helles.  Really good judges who know the style are key.  And in that case, a 10 minute addition can provide just the right accent and pass muster.

rabeb25

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2015, 12:25:44 AM »
No, I am not the expert, claiming to be would only be a lie. However experts did write the rules, and those are what I based my answers on.
Here is my eternal debate. I have dedicated the better part of the last year, almost every free, waking moment to learn about this. This information does not come easy, its tireless work. I have a family, work, a life. Whats the price on that? Do I just give it all up for the sake of science? Would you even do it if I told you (i.e. would I be wasting my breath). My problem also involves me not fully being able to master it as well. Am I going down the wrong path, did I just steer you down the wrong path? I am hesitant, due to all the "paths" I have been put down.




« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 12:28:51 AM by rabeb25 »

Offline Iliff Ave Brewhouse

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2015, 12:26:03 AM »
As an outsider looking in it appears the perfect Munich Helles is not attainable. It is the unicorn of beers...
On Tap/Bottled: Golsch, Iliff IPA, Hopfenbier, Salted berry cider

Fermenting: Rye Cream Ale
Up Next: G Pils, Maibock

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2015, 12:26:11 AM »

Next Monday Im brewing an Helles, and an Helles Exportbier. Will be the 4th attempt at the Helles, trying to dial it in.

1.050 | 18 IBU
9.5 lbs Best Malz Pils
1.5 lbs Best Malz Vienna
Mashed at 145F for 2hrs, target 5.3pH adjusted with lactic per Brewers Friend, 50Ca 10Mg 8Na 50CaCl 0 SO4 107 HCO3
28g Mittelfruh @60
28g Mittelfruh @ 10
2 x 1000ml Wyeast 2308 high krausen pitches
50F
Final pH target 4.3
Cold fined with gel
Bottle conditioned at 2.7 volumes, then lager in cases at 38F for a month

I guess time will tell

If you enter competitions it will have too much hop flavor and aroma from the 10 minute additions according to the judges, who have probably never tasted a fresh Helles in Bayern. If you like it, drink up!

I scored 44 in competition on a Helles that had 15 minute hop addition and, to me, tasted slightly mildly reminiscent of a Helles and had the merit that it was light in color.  I wouldn't use the standard every day BJCP competition as the litmus test for Helles.  Really good judges who know the style are key.  And in that case, a 10 minute addition can provide just the right accent and pass muster.

The must not have been judges named Wolfgang or Fritz


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Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
CPT, U.S.Army
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2015, 12:28:40 AM »
Next Monday Im brewing an Helles, and an Helles Exportbier. Will be the 4th attempt at the Helles, trying to dial it in.

1.050 | 18 IBU
9.5 lbs Best Malz Pils
1.5 lbs Best Malz Vienna
Mashed at 145F for 2hrs, target 5.3pH adjusted with lactic per Brewers Friend, 50Ca 10Mg 8Na 50CaCl 0 SO4 107 HCO3
28g Mittelfruh @60
28g Mittelfruh @ 10
2 x 1000ml Wyeast 2308 high krausen pitches
50F
Final pH target 4.3
Cold fined with gel
Bottle conditioned at 2.7 volumes, then lager in cases at 38F for a month

I guess time will tell

If you enter competitions it will have too much hop flavor and aroma from the 10 minute additions according to the judges, who have probably never tasted a fresh Helles in Bayern. If you like it, drink up!

I scored 44 in competition on a Helles that had 15 minute hop addition and, to me, tasted slightly mildly reminiscent of a Helles and had the merit that it was light in color.  I wouldn't use the standard every day BJCP competition as the litmus test for Helles.  Really good judges who know the style are key.  And in that case, a 10 minute addition can provide just the right accent and pass muster.
Agreed. I am not brewing this just to compete. But it might go. My last attempt had all of those problems I mentioned before, yet took 1st at the Bend Oregon COHO last June. Woo hoo, right? Comps are just fun fund raisers, not really a good test of your beer. Besides, there isnt a comp good enough to prove anything for homebrewers. It all can be argued away. Maybe if you entered WBC and beat all the old Munich breweries... but even then, there will be someone on the Internet brow beating you down. Bottom line, I dont brew to prove anything. Its just for fun. Having said that, continuing to try to come up with MY perfect German Malty Light Lager is fun too

rabeb25

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2015, 12:30:53 AM »

[/quote]

 There are a good number of us out there who all know EXACTLY what each other means when we say a "German" flavor. If you know what it tastes like, you can pick it out in one sip.
[/quote]

To be honest, I don't even need to taste it to know. A smell is all that is needed.

Offline troybinso

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2015, 12:31:13 AM »
No, I am not the expert, claiming to be would only be a lie. However experts did write the rules, and those are what I based my answers on.
Here is my eternal debate. I have dedicated the better part of the last year, almost every free, waking moment to learn about this. This information does not come easy, its tireless work. I have a family, work, a life. Whats the price on that? Do I just give it all up for the sake of science? Would you even do it if I told you (i.e. would I be wasting my breath). My problem also involves me not fully being able to master it as well. Am I going down the wrong path, did I just steer you down the wrong path?

A forum (be it internet or otherwise) is a place to exchange information. If you have information you would like to share then share it.

If you would like to sell this information maybe you should write a book. Brewer's Association is always coming out with new stuff.

If you want to keep it to yourself, then please do that, but I would suggest not critiquing a recipe without some constructive criticism.

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2015, 12:31:39 AM »
Next Monday Im brewing an Helles, and an Helles Exportbier. Will be the 4th attempt at the Helles, trying to dial it in.

1.050 | 18 IBU
9.5 lbs Best Malz Pils
1.5 lbs Best Malz Vienna
Mashed at 145F for 2hrs, target 5.3pH adjusted with lactic per Brewers Friend, 50Ca 10Mg 8Na 50CaCl 0 SO4 107 HCO3
28g Mittelfruh @60
28g Mittelfruh @ 10
2 x 1000ml Wyeast 2308 high krausen pitches
50F
Final pH target 4.3
Cold fined with gel
Bottle conditioned at 2.7 volumes, then lager in cases at 38F for a month

I guess time will tell

If you enter competitions it will have too much hop flavor and aroma from the 10 minute additions according to the judges, who have probably never tasted a fresh Helles in Bayern. If you like it, drink up!

I scored 44 in competition on a Helles that had 15 minute hop addition and, to me, tasted slightly mildly reminiscent of a Helles and had the merit that it was light in color.  I wouldn't use the standard every day BJCP competition as the litmus test for Helles.  Really good judges who know the style are key.  And in that case, a 10 minute addition can provide just the right accent and pass muster.
Agreed. My last one had some friends agreeing with me, and it was a 20 minute addition. Too hoppy according to the judges.

My point is that you will get judges most often who have only had bottled import versions, where the aroma has faded in the months from Germany to their glass. That is all they have for reference.

I won't be in Munich anytime soon,but I will be drinking some Frankonian versions soon. Maybe a Paulaner at the Frankfurt airport high speed train station if that place is still there.  ;)
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2015, 12:42:56 AM »
Disclaimer - Never been to Germany (yet). I know quite a few pretty sharp beer people who have been to Germany and talked about the differences between helles from brewery to brewery, town to town. Zero hop flavor or aroma reported most often obviously, with a few helles showing slight hop flavor and/or aroma. Some maltier than others, some drier, slight color variations within reason, etc. In other words, at least some variation within the style.

My point and question is that, if we accept the premise that brewing helles on a par with the ones brewed in Germany is nearly impossible (and that might be the case), is this a generalized, across the board statement given brewery/regional differences in the style ? Or is it based on comparisons to what the helles experts consider to be one or two of their favorite helles beers in Germany? I consider my helles to be good and evolving, and I'm always looking to make it better. But I also completely agree with others that the setting you drink a beer in can't help but influence your perception of it. Anybody honestly believe that drinking a beer in a Munich biergarten on a sunny day tastes EXACTLY the same as that  same exact beer at home on your sofa ? If the extremes are 'nearly impossible to brew an authentic one' on one end and 'setting affects perception' on the other end, I'm betting the truth lies somewhere in between. Still want to make mine better.
.
Jon H.