Author Topic: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles  (Read 19910 times)

Offline Kit B

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #195 on: November 13, 2015, 02:27:38 PM »
So, Kai's chart of the hichkurz showing it taking a total of 3 hours... way too long I take it? Is that just old info thats not accurate anymore? Seemed long to me.

Some brewers even go much longer.
Kai's version is a pretty middle-of-the-road version.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #196 on: November 13, 2015, 02:56:35 PM »
I'd like to know WHY this length or that length. If I was just looking to be told what to do to clone a german beer, id just go buy one.

Hahaha...You sound like me, in that other thread!
I probably got it from you! Its your fault!

Look, my button got pushed. Its distracting to ask a WHY question and get a response that can be boiled down to You dont need to know why, just do what I do.

Sorry if I vented guys, but "Because I said" just falls short around here.

Jim, I did give some reasons why on the last page - you want each enzyme to have enough time to "go as far as it can go" at each rest temperature. You can do this by tracking when SG increases level off at the beta rest, and by using an iodine test at the alpha rest. The amount of time that conversion takes depends on a lot of things, like the particular malt you use, the mash pH, etc. 30 minutes for beta is a "safe" choice, and the same goes for 40 minutes for alpha.
Now were getting somewhere, thanks.

So, Kai's chart of the hichkurz showing it taking a total of 3 hours... way too long I take it? Is that just old info thats not accurate anymore? Seemed long to me.

Anywho, im not trying to tackle that whole package right now, just the step mash and I think im tracking now.

It shows 3 hours I believe because he is talking about using decoctions to move between the steps. That takes longer, because you typically do a short conversion for the decoction before bringing it to a boil, then spend 5-30 minutes boiling it before adding it back in to the main mash. Direct fired step mashes - which is what I do nowadays - take much less time. I'm done in about 90 minutes usually.
Perfect, I'm on the right road at least. Thanks

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #197 on: November 13, 2015, 03:07:09 PM »
I'd like to know WHY this length or that length. If I was just looking to be told what to do to clone a german beer, id just go buy one.

Hahaha...You sound like me, in that other thread!
I probably got it from you! Its your fault!

Look, my button got pushed. Its distracting to ask a WHY question and get a response that can be boiled down to You dont need to know why, just do what I do.

Sorry if I vented guys, but "Because I said" just falls short around here.

Jim, I did give some reasons why on the last page - you want each enzyme to have enough time to "go as far as it can go" at each rest temperature. You can do this by tracking when SG increases level off at the beta rest, and by using an iodine test at the alpha rest. The amount of time that conversion takes depends on a lot of things, like the particular malt you use, the mash pH, etc. 30 minutes for beta is a "safe" choice, and the same goes for 40 minutes for alpha.
Now were getting somewhere, thanks.

So, Kai's chart of the hichkurz showing it taking a total of 3 hours... way too long I take it? Is that just old info thats not accurate anymore? Seemed long to me.

Anywho, im not trying to tackle that whole package right now, just the step mash and I think im tracking now.
The Hochkurz step mash is less time, since you aren't bringing the thick part to a boil.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing
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Offline Kit B

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #198 on: November 13, 2015, 03:21:22 PM »

The Hochkurz step mash is less time, since you aren't bringing the thick part to a boil.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

True...
When I think of a Hochkurz, I'm thinking of a full-on Hochkurz double decoction.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Mash_diagram_double_decoction_hochkurz.gif

Direct fired step mashing is a different ball game that I can't do, yet.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #199 on: November 13, 2015, 03:33:24 PM »

The Hochkurz step mash is less time, since you aren't bringing the thick part to a boil.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

True...
When I think of a Hochkurz, I'm thinking of a full-on Hochkurz double decoction.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Mash_diagram_double_decoction_hochkurz.gif

Direct fired step mashing is a different ball game that I can't do, yet.
Jim is talking about the direct fired step mash, no?
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BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline brewday

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2015, 04:49:21 PM »
After keeping up with this thread the last couple of days, I'm tweaking my recipe a bit.  I still want to try the Cologne malt here, but I'm backing off a little.  I'll brew it this weekend or next.

Now, if I name the beer Ding An Sich, will I have found "It"?

-----

OG 1.048
FG 1.009
IBU 19
SRM 3.8

93% Pils
4.5% Cologne
2.5% CaraHell
(I might toss in a couple ounces of Carafoam.)

Hm/Tett throughout
100% RO, .75 tsp Calcium Chloride, 0.25 tsp Gypsum in the mash
Mash 148/158 for 60/15

WLP 833
Jon Weaver

Offline Kit B

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #201 on: November 13, 2015, 04:53:27 PM »

Jim is talking about the direct fired step mash, no?

True.
That was an explanation of my own confusion, when I posted that some brewers mash for longer.
Not saying he needs to do a decoction.
Why would anyone want to drink stale beer?

Offline denny

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #202 on: November 13, 2015, 04:54:23 PM »
I'm so glad I don't really care for Helles.  If I did, this thread would discourage me from ever brewing one.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #203 on: November 13, 2015, 04:59:19 PM »
I'm so glad I don't really care for Helles.  If I did, this thread would discourage me from ever brewing one.

I am sorry to hear that. Nobody forced you to read it, though.

There was some interesting info.  Doesn't change my mind, though.  No need to be sorry..there are a lot of styles that I don't care for or brew.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #204 on: November 13, 2015, 05:02:05 PM »
I'm so glad I don't really care for Helles.  If I did, this thread would discourage me from ever brewing one.

This thread has me contemplating picking some Urquell to see if I can taste "it."

I also want to get some Beck's, since I assume that doesn't have "it" since it's brewed in the USA.  But maybe it does?

Either way, it's not likely I'll brew a Helles any time soon.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #205 on: November 13, 2015, 05:11:49 PM »
I'm so glad I don't really care for Helles.  If I did, this thread would discourage me from ever brewing one.

This thread has me contemplating picking some Urquell to see if I can taste "it."

I also want to get some Beck's, since I assume that doesn't have "it" since it's brewed in the USA.  But maybe it does?

Either way, it's not likely I'll brew a Helles any time soon.


FWIW, I don't feel like Beck's has any of 'it' but I'm obviously not as attuned to 'it' as some. I will vouch for the Urquell in cans, though. Awesome stuff.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #206 on: November 13, 2015, 05:22:39 PM »
FWIW, I don't feel like Beck's has any of 'it' but I'm obviously not as attuned to 'it' as some. I will vouch for the Urquell in cans, though. Awesome stuff.

I'm assuming it (Beck's) doesn't.  But, in a contrarian sort of way it would be awesome if it does.

Regardless, if I have some cans of Beck's in the fridge I know someone will drink them.

And, I enjoyed a couple glasses of my O-fest last night.  Pretty sure it doesn't have it, but it was tasty.

I'm just curious to see if I can figure out what the sturm and drang is about.  Probably not, and if not, I'll go back to not knowing I don't know.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline brewday

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #207 on: November 13, 2015, 05:28:41 PM »
After keeping up with this thread the last couple of days, I'm tweaking my recipe a bit.  I still want to try the Cologne malt here, but I'm backing off a little.  I'll brew it this weekend or next.

Now, if I name the beer Ding An Sich, will I have found "It"?

-----

OG 1.048
FG 1.009
IBU 19
SRM 3.8

93% Pils
4.5% Cologne
2.5% CaraHell
(I might toss in a couple ounces of Carafoam.)

Hm/Tett throughout
100% RO, .75 tsp Calcium Chloride, 0.25 tsp Gypsum in the mash
Mash 148/158 for 60/15

WLP 833

I would get rid of the gypsum completely. Remember to adjust mash/boil pH to 5.5 and 5.1. What IBU formula are you using? If tinseth, try 14-15

You're probably right.  The Kolsch I referenced back on page 1 or 2 had one tsp CaCl2, no gypsum.  I do typically target 5.5, and I use Rager.
Jon Weaver

Offline brewday

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #208 on: November 13, 2015, 05:32:33 PM »
FWIW, I don't feel like Beck's has any of 'it' but I'm obviously not as attuned to 'it' as some. I will vouch for the Urquell in cans, though. Awesome stuff.

+1 to the cans.  I've had some great DAB cans recently too.
Jon Weaver

Offline narcout

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #209 on: November 13, 2015, 05:42:55 PM »
At this point, if you would like I will post my last brew details, if you would like a glimpse of what I am talking about.

That would be cool.

There's nothing I'd love to do more than sit down with you guys and taste some German beers.

Come to the NHC next summer.
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone