Author Topic: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles  (Read 26947 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #225 on: November 13, 2015, 10:15:37 PM »

The Hochkurz step mash is less time, since you aren't bringing the thick part to a boil.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

True...
When I think of a Hochkurz, I'm thinking of a full-on Hochkurz double decoction.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Mash_diagram_double_decoction_hochkurz.gif

Direct fired step mashing is a different ball game that I can't do, yet.
Jim is talking about the direct fired step mash, no?
Yes.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #226 on: November 13, 2015, 10:34:38 PM »
 With this thread, I feel like I waded across a wide swift flowing river that was a bit over waist deep in the middle only to come out the other side with nothing more than wet shorts to show for it.

I think I recognize the "it" and it is the 5 elements with a perceptible "snap, fade" on the aroma (once you perceive it, it fills your olfactory senses and then is gone, at least for the moment, but on the exhale, you get a second chance at it, kinda like a burp after a good meal).  Subtlety to the nth degree, yet perceptible.

I have a good brewing friend who can make "it" happen and he doesn't say that there is only one way, either. He just knows what the German school taught him.  He tells me to use a little Carafoam (half a pound at most for 5 gallons) with Pilsner malt, do an acid rest (I know, it is unnecessary with well modified malts), double decoct, use a teaspoon of Wyeast yeast nutrient at 10 minutes left in the boil (he swears by it), pitch a good starter (2206 or your favorite) at about 62-64F, and slide the temperature down to about 54F over a couple days; then at the end of high krausen, move it up a slight bit (.5-1 degree per day?) over several days to about 68 and let it finish completely at that temperature, then step it down 3-4 degrees per day until at 32F, which is held until the beer is very clear (usually only a couple days at most).  Then rack and carbonate and cellar at 32F for a couple weeks.  He wins with it and I have tasted "it" in it. 

FWIW, I have another friend who flew to Germany 3 times per month for years and always brought back fresh German lagers, usually Helles.  There is something to the freshness, too.  The "field being fresh" and the "snap" to me are how I can attempt to articulate the concept.  But having said all of that, I have tasted some damn good homebrews that don't have "it", but have everything else, which ain't half bad.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #227 on: November 14, 2015, 01:38:06 AM »
Only to the extent he heats it.
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #228 on: November 14, 2015, 01:50:14 AM »
Is it just me that thinks this thread was derailed a long time ago.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #229 on: November 14, 2015, 01:58:21 AM »
Some good stuff even though it twisted and turned


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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #230 on: November 14, 2015, 02:15:17 AM »
Is it just me that thinks this thread was derailed a long time ago.

Leos - you make good German style beers.  I would love to hear your thoughts on this....
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #231 on: November 14, 2015, 03:24:10 AM »
Is it just me that thinks this thread was derailed a long time ago.

Leos - you make good German style beers.  I would love to hear your thoughts on this....
Thank you.

With all due respect. There is no IT in beer overseas. I lived there half of my life and If there was IT in it would know what it is.

Now when we talk about the flavor. First it is barley. Continental barley has more flavor then domestic barley. Yes different maltsters get you a different flavors for the same style of malt. So you need to be maltster specific. You can actually blend base malt. Let say Weyernman Pilsner and Castle Pilsner.

Water is from soft to moderate. So there is a wide range. Adjust your recipe to your water.

Hops. Imported hops are fine quality and correct variety.

Yeast. Please do not tell me that 2124 is too clean and that augusteener is superb. Pick a yeast you like and work with it. You want clean beer with it, make it ferment clean. You want more esters in it ferment it that way. Fermentation flavor is dependent on vessel geometric, pitching rate and temperature. How many of you considered fermenting in open fermenter? Or open shallow fermenter?

Wort production. If you do step mashing it is less error prone and can create more fermentable wort. Not sure if decoction do too much to it. It is a good way to raise mash temp on large scale. If you have 6 vessel Brewhouse you can knock out one batch every 2 hours.

German/Czech beers sold in your local store are old beers that did sit in hot shipping container for couple of weeks. So I would not take it as a reference point. I suspect that PU in U.S. Is brewed in here. When you buy a keg it comes in Miller keg. With beer companies consolidation Europe is suffering from Euro Lager beer. This is a mass produced low flavor lager that compares to domestic mass produced lagers.

If you want to read more specifics about individual beers do a research in European product marks. You will find a lot of good info that is in English from malt modification index to final beer pH. This is on brewery bases that file for this regional mark protection.

Finally. Brew a lot and practice the art. Have fun.

Sorry for the novel.
Na Zdravie

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #232 on: November 14, 2015, 03:32:41 AM »
Is it just me that thinks this thread was derailed a long time ago.

Leos - you make good German style beers.  I would love to hear your thoughts on this....
Thank you.

With all due respect. There is no IT in beer overseas. I lived there half of my life and If there was IT in it would know what it is.

Now when we talk about the flavor. First it is barley. Continental barley has more flavor then domestic barley. Yes different maltsters get you a different flavors for the same style of malt. So you need to be maltster specific. You can actually blend base malt. Let say Weyernman Pilsner and Castle Pilsner.

Water is from soft to moderate. So there is a wide range. Adjust your recipe to your water.

Hops. Imported hops are fine quality and correct variety.

Yeast. Please do not tell me that 2124 is too clean and that augusteener is superb. Pick a yeast you like and work with it. You want clean beer with it, make it ferment clean. You want more esters in it ferment it that way. Fermentation flavor is dependent on vessel geometric, pitching rate and temperature. How many of you considered fermenting in open fermenter? Or open shallow fermenter?

Wort production. If you do step mashing it is less error prone and can create more fermentable wort. Not sure if decoction do too much to it. It is a good way to raise mash temp on large scale. If you have 6 vessel Brewhouse you can knock out one batch every 2 hours.

German/Czech beers sold in your local store are old beers that did sit in hot shipping container for couple of weeks. So I would not take it as a reference point. I suspect that PU in U.S. Is brewed in here. When you buy a keg it comes in Miller keg. With beer companies consolidation Europe is suffering from Euro Lager beer. This is a mass produced low flavor lager that compares to domestic mass produced lagers.

If you want to read more specifics about individual beers do a research in European product marks. You will find a lot of good info that is in English from malt modification index to final beer pH. This is on brewery bases that file for this regional mark protection.

Finally. Brew a lot and practice the art. Have fun.

Sorry for the novel.
A needed novel. Thanks for the view point of experience. I have no doubt about anything you said.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #233 on: November 14, 2015, 03:40:06 AM »
Not exactly sure what all this
Means, but for me it's pretty simple and straight forward


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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #234 on: November 14, 2015, 03:52:41 AM »
Thanks for all the great info, Leos. Very much appreciated !
Jon H.

Offline Iliff Ave Brewhouse

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #235 on: November 14, 2015, 04:12:01 AM »
Mic drop
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Offline Footballandhops

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #236 on: November 14, 2015, 04:14:21 AM »
Cliff notes anyone??? Thread too long
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #237 on: November 14, 2015, 05:22:51 AM »
Thank you Leos.
Amanda Burkemper
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Offline Stevie

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #238 on: November 14, 2015, 05:28:46 AM »

Thank you Leos.
What are you even doing in this conversation? You can't brew a Helles on a Zymatic!

;)

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Chasing the perfect Munich Helles
« Reply #239 on: November 14, 2015, 05:42:16 AM »

Thank you Leos.
What are you even doing in this conversation? You can't brew a Helles on a Zymatic!

;)
I'm thinking that there is a lot of chatter, all pointing to the exact same thing: 'Freshness'. Only cursory review has been given to the freshness of malt and hops, which is the most likely candidate for 'fresh fields', 'flowers', and 'freshly milled grain'... aka "it".

We have two excellent "German" breweries in our area, Urban Chestnut and KC Bier Co. They both have what half of this thread is talking about, the "it". You know what they both do? They invest tons of time and effort into getting the freshest malt and hops they can get ahold of, while serving it as fresh as possible. I do believe this is the "it". And I do believe I can try/do it on a tiny scale on the Z. ;) and

Hahahaha. I've enjoyed this thread while drinking my "Kolsch". Good night, boys. Cheers.
Amanda Burkemper
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BJCP Assistant Education Director
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